Ford vs Honda quality comparison - Page 6
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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DIRT BOY View Post
    Love the new looks.......
    ......with Ferrari 458 styling rip offs by a kid doodling in study hall.
    The crumbling of our wide freeways suggest a narrower vision

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  2. #127
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    Ford vs Honda quality comparison

    Quote Originally Posted by oily666 View Post
    ......with Ferrari 458 styling rip offs by a kid doodling in study hall.
    You'll have plenty of time to study that styling from behind the wheel of your 911. Well, at least the part on the back, anyway.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by froze View Post
    Which Alfa is this you have?
    It's a heavily modified '86 Spider. Can't blame the Alfa engineers for this one, but it was the best place for the turbo.



    Oil filter is almost directly under the turbocharger at the back of the photo. Alternator is just under the air filter.

    I agree that there are a lot of parts on cars that are not exactly designed for serviceability. They are shoving more and more junk into smaller engine bays, and when trying to fit the jigsaw puzzle together on a budget, the egineers tend to think about serviceability last.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    So, after 10 years, the worse car make has an average of 1.5 problems per car per year, and the best, a little over .5 problems per car, with the rest somewhere in between.

    That's not really a big difference.

    Plus, that chart has a few glaring problems.

    First, data provided by owners, while wide reaching, has issues, not the least of which is owner bias.

    Second, it lumps all cars from each make together, which hides individual vehicles which may be either exceptionally reliable or exceptionally unreliable. It also hides individual drivetrain combinations.

    Third, their sample base consists only of subscribers.

    Here are a couple of alternative takes on the matter:

    https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/a-car...213610506.html

    His list of the ten best cars is surprising:
    https://www.yahoo.com/autos/bp/the-t...192211682.html

    and another:

    Long-Term Quality Index

    Yeah... I think most ppl would consider a defect rate that's almost triple to be a big difference, even if you do not. I also think most owners know what's up with their cars and can report a defect. They don't need a mechanic or car auctioneer to interpret that for them. "My transmission blew up" is pretty easy to report.

    Far as individual models 'hiding' in the data goes... CR does break out reliability by individual car model. That info isn't in the graph for obvious reasons... 200 different lines over time = a very messy graph. But it's there in CR's magazine and on their website.

    Basically, I think ppl and organizations who pooh-pooh CR's data are often ppl who don't like what it has to say. Or who have something alternative to sell.

    The same guy in your links does have a take on the 1990's Ford Taurus that does square with my experiences, though:

    There are cars out there that are worth so little money now that they go straight to the junkyards instead of the wholesale auctions: Older Chryslers with defective 2.7-liter engines, older Suzukis and Kias, and the aquatic late '90's Ford Tauruses sometimes fall straight into the crusher once a major problem takes hold.


    Yup... probably because to fix it takes more $$$ than the car's worth.
    Though in my Taurus' case, that point was reached back in 2003.




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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    I also think most owners know what's up with their cars and can report a defect.
    You're a better man than me. Based on the number of cars I see with under inflated or bald tires, bad shocks, etc... I think the exact opposite is true. Most people will complain about an awkward cup holder location or complex user interface on a touchscreen infotainment system long before they notice a true mechanical issue. And those same people will ***** when their engine goes even though they changed the oil once a year regardless of mileage. Maybe I'm biased since I live with one of those people

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    It is a nine page article.





    It is not B.S.
    Tons of tuning hs been done over the years resulting in some pretty impressive Dyno-queens. 2JZs are king **** when it comes to that. 1000whp+ reliably, with frightening handling and a power band that looks like Mt. Everest.

    There's nothing impressive about putting 900hp in an S2000. The best thing about S2000s is the handling. Nothing else. They're great for autocross and that's about it.

  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by CBus660R View Post
    You're a better man than me. Based on the number of cars I see with under inflated or bald tires, bad shocks, etc... I think the exact opposite is true. Most people will complain about an awkward cup holder location or complex user interface on a touchscreen infotainment system long before they notice a true mechanical issue. And those same people will ***** when their engine goes even though they changed the oil once a year regardless of mileage.

    Maybe I'm biased since I live with one of those people
    LOL. I feel your pain.
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  8. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Yeah... I think most ppl would consider a defect rate that's almost triple to be a big difference, even if you do not. I also think most owners know what's up with their cars and can report a defect. They don't need a mechanic or car auctioneer to interpret that for them. "My transmission blew up" is pretty easy to report.

    Far as individual models 'hiding' in the data goes... CR does break out reliability by individual car model. That info isn't in the graph for obvious reasons... 200 different lines over time = a very messy graph. But it's there in CR's magazine and on their website.

    Basically, I think ppl and organizations who pooh-pooh CR's data are often ppl who don't like what it has to say. Or who have something alternative to sell.

    The same guy in your links does have a take on the 1990's Ford Taurus that does square with my experiences, though:

    There are cars out there that are worth so little money now that they go straight to the junkyards instead of the wholesale auctions: Older Chryslers with defective 2.7-liter engines, older Suzukis and Kias, and the aquatic late '90's Ford Tauruses sometimes fall straight into the crusher once a major problem takes hold.


    Yup... probably because to fix it takes more $$$ than the car's worth.
    Though in my Taurus' case, that point was reached back in 2003.




    .
    CR's data is crap from a scientific view. Their results are interesting, and curious, but no reliable conclusions can be drawn from it. They make no effort to account for various anomalies that affect the data, such as owner bias (if a person loves the car, they will tend to downplay problems, if a person hates the car, they will tend to overreport problems), luxury car bias (people who buy luxury cars have a higher standard, so are much more likely to report minor problems as major), respondents are left to determine on their own what constitutes a major or a minor problem (see previous reasons), their sample size is limited demographically, and when broken down by individual model, there are actually very few data points, they also don't account at all for potential differences in maintenance.

    You seem to be a bright fellow. I'm sure you already know all this, but my guess is you're going to continue to argue otherwise, because that's what you do ;)
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guod View Post
    Tons of tuning hs been done over the years resulting in some pretty impressive Dyno-queens. 2JZs are king **** when it comes to that. 1000whp+ reliably, with frightening handling and a power band that looks like Mt. Everest.

    There's nothing impressive about putting 900hp in an S2000. The best thing about S2000s is the handling. Nothing else. They're great for autocross and that's about it.
    Auto-X and track days/amateur racing.

    They're not terrible daily drivers either. Simple, reliable, and a great driver's car. Who says that a commuter needs to be an appliance? All I know is that in good weather there's nothing better than cruising around with the top down.

    Though, I don't daily my s2000. If only because I can't drop my kids of at school in a 2-seater.

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by charlox5 View Post
    Who says that a commuter needs to be an appliance?
    I totally agree with you on that. I had a career change about a year after I bought my '06 Mustang GT with a stick. My new day consisted of a 20 mile commute to the office + an additional 50-100 miles of driving every day. I loved that car for that, even in stop and go rush hour.

  11. #136
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    OK, 4 months and 10,000 miles later here's another assessment.

    Mileage has been a consistent 20-21 mpg combined. I've gotten as high as 30 mpg and as low as 20 mpg on the highway. Local driving is a solid 17.5. The truck is very sensitive to airflow, speed, gas quality, and use of the cruise control - 75 mph on corn with no cars around and it gets 21, 65 mph on pure gas behind a larger vehicle and it gets 30. Also, using the CC drops the mileage by 1-2 mpg.

    It handles well for a vehicle of its size. No bumpsteer to speak of, which when you consider that huge solid rear axle unit, is surprising.

    I'm going to have to take it in for some warranty work. The check engine light came on after I turned onto the highway and nailed it. It went into some kind of limp mode for a couple miles. Seems like it's the turbo intercooler problem they supposedly resolved after the 2012 model year.

    It's also got some rattles over potholes.

    The Honda on the other hand now has about 3000 miles. Mileage has been disappointing - about 23 combined and 29 hwy. It's underpowered, although the CVT makes the most of the available power. I still have to flog it pretty hard to get up to speed on the interstate when it's got 2 adults, two kids, and our stuff.

    It stalled one time backing out of the driveway. Odd. If that happens again we'll have to take it in.

    Wife likes it, though. She used to ***** about the van all the time but she hasn't made a peep other than to tell me about the stalling. She's thinking next time she may want something else, though.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  12. #137
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    Your rough idle is likely caused by clogged fuel injectors. They can be cleaned: https://www.rceng.com/

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohvrolla View Post
    I'm curious to what is the average metric here to be considered reliable. Case in point, Dirt Boy mentioned a Highlander with 45k miles on it that has been flawless. I'm sure I could find other car threads on this forum where someone has said "I have a 2013 whatever and it's been BULLETPROOF." I think the expectations should be higher. Personally I'd like to exceed 100k before a anything needs replacement, and that's just peripheral items. 200k should be considered the minimum for a car's usefulness. I know most don't keep a car that long, especially if purchased new but most cars are replaced out of want and not out of need.
    I agree, 45,000 miles of dependability is laughable. There is no reason a car can't be built to go 400,000 miles relatively pain free, except we have those nasty electronics that are so jammed packed into a car and do everything that makes a modern car unreliable and expensive to fix. But that's what the car manufactures want, they wanted to build a car that would prevent backyard mechanics from working on them easily and thus forcing the owner to bring it back to the dealer which makes money for the dealer...lots of money that doesn't get down to the mechanics level of course.

    We need to back away from all that unreliable electronic crap. They don't want people texting yet they have the car set up so in order to operate anything you have to scroll through screen after screen to get what you want which of course takes your eyes off the road and your hands off the steering wheel. Simple push button technology works fantastic and is easy to operate without ever having to look away from the road to do it.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Your rough idle is likely caused by clogged fuel injectors. They can be cleaned: https://www.rceng.com/
    It's not a rough idle. Something happened under hard acceleration, causing it to go into limp mode briefly. Hasn't happened since.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  15. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Your rough idle is likely caused by clogged fuel injectors. They can be cleaned: https://www.rceng.com/
    Initially you don't need to jump the river and go directly to expensive fuel injection system cleaners using mechanical devices, first try Sea Foam Motor Treatment, this is currently the best in a bottled fuel injection cleaning product on the market, simply follow the directions and pour into your gas tank then fill the tank up and drive it around like normal till the tank is almost empty. If it still runs rough do another dose, after that if the problem is still there it's probably mechanical and all the fancy mechanical fuel system cleaners in the world won't clear it up.

    However since Andy's experience is only under hard acceleration and it hasn't happened since I would think something got stuck that one time then got unstuck and may not happen again for a long time. Problem with this sort of thing is that it won't leave a fault code because it only happened once, and the limp mode turned off once it cleared up, which brings a whole new set of problems which would be impossible to determine if any of them caused it.

    It could be the low pressure fuel sensor goofed up and went back to normal.
    Transmission line pressure dropped.
    Speed sensor.
    And the list goes on.

    The best thing to do is to ignore it since a check engine light never came on.

  16. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    It's not a rough idle. Something happened under hard acceleration, causing it to go into limp mode briefly. Hasn't happened since.
    I figured out what the problem is. Moisture builds up in the intercooler and when you hit the throttle, it sucks some of it into the intake, cause a misfire. Ford is working on various fixes but doesn't have one that works 100% yet. The Ford forums have it figured out - drill a 1/16 drain hole at the lowest part of the intercooler and change the spark plugs. I suspect Ford can't do that fix because of the oily slime that comes out, but whatever.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  17. #142
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    So here we are over a year later.

    I still love the Ford. No problems to speak of other than the turbo intercooler deal. Just did the 40k oil change and changed the spark plugs. Ford recommends 100k miles on the plugs, but anyone who's ever owned a boosted engine knows that's incredibly optimistic. Surprisingly, the gap on the old plugs was still .032, but there was some carbon tracking. They definitely needed to be replaced. Next up, brakes. I figure 40k on a set of factory Ford brakes is pretty darn good.

    The lease on the Honda CRV expires in a year and a half. I doubt we will get another one. The list of complaints is not long, but they are annoying

    1. Uncomfortable on long trips. The front seats are designed for someone 5' tall and do not support either of us very well. The ride is VERY harsh - much worse than my truck.

    2. Poor design from a driving standpoint. You can hide a battleship in the blind spot, and looking back doesn't help AT ALL. In fact, that little turn up at the back corner of the back window often fooled me into thinking there was a car there until I got used to it. The side mirrors are very little help.

    3. Fit and finish is lacking. Weatherstrip came off the door a few days after we got it home. The paint on the door jambs is uncleared. WTF? On a $25k car? come on. Same with the wipers - 2 positions. Even my $8000 Ford Escort had more than that. The extra switch is what, a $10 part?

    4. It's too small. My 5 year old can't get out of the back door easily. He needs help because it's too tall and the door isn't wide enough to allow him to slide down from the floor. I have trouble getting into the front seat. So does Mrs69.

    Other than that, it's been very reliable. Not sure what we're going to replace it with when the time comes, but we have plenty of time to think about it. It's a shame she doesn't want another van. As much bad as I can say about the Dodge we had for 10 years, I can say that it was damn comfortable on long trips, could hold a ton of stuff, and the engine and transmission were dead nuts reliable in 108k miles.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  18. #143
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    Three years later, the F150 has almost 80k on it, still runs like new. I just put a new set of tires on it, replacing the Michelins with Continentals. The Michelins were supposed to last past 80k, but had chunks of rubber spalling off due to the sipe design. The only other complaint is it's a pukemobile for anyone sitting in the back, especially on twisty roads. Adding 500lbs to the bed tames this tendency considerably. It was like night and day for the kids. Although when my son and I went up to MN, he sat in the middle in the back and was fine.

    The CRV has 15k on it. It's a lease and we're due to turn it in in June. We can't wait. I hate it, Mrs69 hates it, the kids hate it. It's horribly uncomfortable on long trips, has intermittent drivability issues that the dealer can't figure out, and gets much worse mileage than the EPA estimate - only a few points better than my truck on the highway. It's a cheaply built entry level $15k econobox that sells for $25k, a price that people happily pay because they want the name.

    We're probably going to get another van, and it might be another Dodge. They aren't the most reliable, but they are the best designed and the most comfortable.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  19. #144
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    I got rid of the 2011 CR-V when I discovered mine was using almost a quart of oil per thousand miles. They issued a warranty extension, but apparently that was normal oil usage and didn't qualify for an oil study just yet. Horrible, the decision to use 0 weight oil wasn't good imho. It also was pretty uninspiring to drive, slow, not comfortable for anything over an hour or two.

    The Ford Edge Sport that replaced it is very nice, quiet inside, 315hp, almost fun to drive. No issues until weeks ago, when I was rear-ended by a Nissan. The Grand Cherokee Laredo loaner I drove for a week was not fun. I thought it would have had better traction in the snow, it didn't really. It also rode like a truck. I tried to like it, but I'm not a fan, I'll not buy one probably ever.

    The wife bought a Honda HR-V despite my objections. It has a CVT and is gutless, but better access and room in the back than a Subaru. As for Subaru I won't ever buy one unless I lose my job and can't afford a decent vehicle over $25k. I don't understand the hype, I drove a 2017 as a rental and it was noisy, slow, and the interior seemed dated. My work vehicle is a 2015 Ford Escape, not sure it's worth the time to even review. My only real Toyota experience has been with Camrys, we have several for fleet vehicle. They seem competent, but extremely boring to drive. I have not driven the newest 2018 yet, I will.

    Our 2006 Hyundai Tuscon has been pretty much flawless. It has been beat to crap and is used mainly for hauling 4 dogs in the back. If the newer Hyundai's are anything like it I would certainly consider another easily.
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  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    We're probably going to get another van, and it might be another Dodge. They aren't the most reliable, but they are the best designed and the most comfortable.
    I had to rent a Dodge GC for work recently - some other coworkers had a Toyota Sienna the week prior and complained of the seats, so I took the GC when I found out they had a couple on the lot. What a damned comfy vehicle. The trip was 9-10 hours each way and I didn't have much fatigue or soreness at all. It had plenty of power with six adults and their luggage inside, too.

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    I've had two hondas an 84 crx and a 92 accord, with a mercury cougar in between a 1986. the crx survived 10 years, the accord 13 years before the dealer crashed it. the cougar was a lemon and was constantly in the shop. will never buy a ford vehicle ever again. it really does stand for fixed or repaired daily

  22. #147
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    I've had great luck with my 2003 Odyssey. Yeah, it's boring, drives like a boat and sits in every other driveway in the suburbs where I live -- BUT I've never had to do anything aside from scheduled maintenance, I can fit a sheet of plywood in the back, or two bikes with both wheels on -- just roll them in. My kids are teenagers now and I don't really need a minivan anymore, but I'd consider buying another one just because its so convenient.

    The Volvo V70 that proceeded it started to rapidly fall apart when it got to the same age. I'll never buy a Volvo again. Everyone claims those cars last forever -- that wasn't my experience.

  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by GirchyGirchy View Post
    I had to rent a Dodge GC for work recently - some other coworkers had a Toyota Sienna the week prior and complained of the seats, so I took the GC when I found out they had a couple on the lot. What a damned comfy vehicle. The trip was 9-10 hours each way and I didn't have much fatigue or soreness at all. It had plenty of power with six adults and their luggage inside, too.
    The kids rode in the back of ours on a 2000 mile round trip to Denver, not a complaint at all.

    Constant complaining from the back of the Honda, and often there is puking involved.

    Same with the truck, but at least it settles down with some weight in the bed.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trek_5200 View Post
    I've had two hondas an 84 crx and a 92 accord, with a mercury cougar in between a 1986. the crx survived 10 years, the accord 13 years before the dealer crashed it. the cougar was a lemon and was constantly in the shop. will never buy a ford vehicle ever again. it really does stand for fixed or repaired daily
    I will say this about my CRX: it's been a race car since 6 months after it was bought new. I just replaced the original engine in 2016 - spun bearing.

    Ford trucks are top notch, though. 325k on a shop truck that is now 12 years old in the hands of crews that are notorious for destroying brand new Suburbans in less than five years.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by froze View Post
    I've rented a lot of cars over the years and most haven't impressed me since the 80's really! .
    I rent a lot of different cars too. Most are horrible. Some of the worst include the Ford Explorer, Jeep Compass, but I also hated the new 4Runner I rented also. All the midsize domestics and Kias were horrible to drive, weird heavy steering feel. But the Ford Mustang was the worst of all. So I usually insist on getting the smallest cars in the fleet.

    the best rental car I've had in the past 5 years? A Ford Fiesta. This was in Italy. It was the largest car a person could reasonably use in that country, and it was a HOOT! and came in manual ,as all rentals should, lol. I'd go for a used Fiesta 5sp as a runabout in a heartbeat (my other cars are lumbering v8 powered things)
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 02-06-2018 at 04:47 PM.
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