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  1. #751
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    SPOILERS BELOW (of course).

    I actually liked this episode better than anything else this season. No, really.

    Yes, the execution still sucks and is very, pretty much criminally, rushed. Yes, there is still a high random stupidity quotient, best exemplified by the 'OMG, they're so deadly!... oh wait, now they just totally suck all of a sudden!' ballista/scorpions. Oh, and Euron JUST HAPPENING to show up at the backdoor of the Red Keep at the exact same time as Jaimie. Derp.

    But, if one can look past the muddled mess that the showrunners are dishing up, and see what GRRM meant to do... wow. The Mad Queen turn is pretty great, and really ballsy.

    It'd be like Frodo taking the One Ring, turning evil, and conquering Middle Earth for himself. Yes, he did kinda try to keep the Ring for himself at Mount Doom, but he never Holocausted a town of one million inhabitants, as Daenerys did. This is another level.

    AND YES, OF COURSE, a lot of ppl will say this sucks, because, well, in the show, it kinda does. Despite the occasional hint-dropping, the Mad Queen turn feels unearned, because it is.

    Because it always was going to be, with the show this hyper-accelerated in Seasons 7 and 8, and with the execution being this poor and muddled. But you can see GRRM's outline here, and it's pretty magnificent. Who else would even DO this? Amazing.

    And polarizing, in much the same way as the Red Wedding episode was several seasons back. But great, challenging storytelling... albeit in this case, through the very imperfect canvas of the showrunners. But one thing they got right was focusing so much on the devastation that Daenerys caused to 'the little people'. This was basically GoT's '9/11' episode, if you follow, and Arya was the perfect witness to really bring that home.

    So then this all sets up a possibly fascinating series finale. You have to say 'possibly', because showrunners/writers Benioff and Weiss are fumbling and stumbling about with the ball, and may not be able to bring it on home. But it's brilliant as set up by GRRM, anyway.

    What DO you do, really, with someone like Daenerys, someone who's finally revealed herself to be a true tyrant despite all her good intentions, and literally DID just 'Burn them all!' in a way that her father, the Mad King, only dreamt of doing? What does Jon do to his Queen, Aunt, and former lover? What does Tyrion do? Sansa? Arya? Do you fall in line, negotiate, walk away, or try to kill her? What's right? What serves the kingdom? Your own feelings/needs? Is she 'the tyrant Westeros needs', or a cancer that must be cut out? What is the nature of power?

    In other things... liked, but did not love the 'Cleganebowl'. It looked 'beautifully apocalyptic' with the fire and destruction all around (like two titans fighting in hell itself), but it wasn't necessarily fight-choreographed all that well... it had the cliche'd much-stronger-guy-throwing-the-other-guy around thing going on. But Sandor's reactions and dialogue were perfect... "Yeahhh... that's you. That's who you've always been."

    And what other way could it possibly end, but both of them falling into fire?

    Did not really like the Euron-Jaimie fight. Euron, as portrayed in the show, has always been a stupid character, and worse, a deus ex machina for the some of the show's worst moments/execution down the home stretch. Would've been nice to see Jaimie beat him to death with his metal hand, while shouting, "BAD WRITING! BAD WRITING!!!"

    Cersei's death, though... yes, it worked. Some won't agree, wishing that Arya or Sandor or even Jaimie had done her in painfully, but, no. That's too easy and un-GRRM-like, the big bad villainess twirling her golden hair and dying with a snarl on her evil resting b!tch face.

    The way it was done, with Jaimie being so obviously still in love with her, and she crying as she finally realizes the full, disastrous weight of her folly, knowing that she's going to die, that Jaimie's going to die, and that her unborn child is going to die... that just works. It's not what you wanted, it's not what you expected, but it works. And the Red Keep, her seat of power, folding in on her, killing her and everything she still loves, the only things she still loves... perfect. It really is. Even though, yes, Cersei is still that very same monster who butchered Missandei just an episode pervious.

    It's the '9/11' episode of GoT, it's the biggest complete heel turn of a central character in any fantasy series I can recall, it was NOT well set-up at all by the showrunners (and I really hope that the karma from this and their piss-poor Seasons 7-8 comes back to bite them in the ass on their next project, Confederate)... and it still worked. That's how good GRRM's storytelling/broad-outline is. Even in the hands of these clods.

    Write the books, GRRM. Show us how it REALLY should've gone. But, nice job anyway.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

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  2. #752
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post

    But, if one can look past the muddled mess that the showrunners are dishing up, and see what GRRM meant to do... wow.
    If you look past the burnt bits, and the raw bits, and the overseasoned bits, and the underseasoned bits to what the chef MEANT to do...

    Still tastes bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post

    Cersei's death, though... yes, it worked. Some won't agree, wishing that Arya or Sandor or even Jaimie had done her in painfully, but, no. That's too easy and un-GRRM-like, the big bad villainess twirling her golden hair and dying with a snarl on her evil resting b!tch face.

    The way it was done, with Jaimie being so obviously still in love with her, ...
    I don't object to her death so much as the complete invalidation of Jaime's character arc.

    The acting was good though, I think the actors in large part did a GREAT job with what they were handed, throughout the episode. They were just handed thin gruel to work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post

    So then this all sets up a possibly fascinating series finale. You have to say 'possibly', because showrunners/writers Benioff and Weiss are fumbling and stumbling about with the ball, and may not be able to bring it on home.
    Lots of things are possible. I'd bet based on the track record, not hopes or possibilities. And the track record since leaving the books behind has been going downhill steadily. I give a 5 for the burning of KL episode. Competent, but nothing special. A waste of SO MUCH that has gone before. What I would think if that was all I saw of the show, or if it were the core of a single film... standard thinly sketched character fantasy crap.

    Thin, like butter scraped over too much bread.

    But if there were just more butter, as the chef intended, it would have been tasty.
    .
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  3. #753
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuiQuaeQuod View Post
    I don't object to her death so much as the complete invalidation of Jaime's character arc.
    'Game Of Thrones' Has Belatedly Pwned Me...-game-thrones-season8-episode-5-memes-8.jpg

    Yes, the invalidation of his arc was my biggest issue with it as well. They should have let Tormund get the giant of Tarth instead of Jaime if they were going to end it like that. Also death by construction was lame. I feel the fans deserved better after wanting to see her die miserably for 8 seasons. It should have been more Joffrei and less Melisandre.

    It wasn't all bad, I loved seeing the dragon destruction in the episode even if I didn't agree with the characters motivation for doing it. The dragons are one of the highlights of the show (lots of credit to the sfx and the sound fx people involved). I liked how they showed it from the town's people's and Arya's perspective as well.

    'Game Of Thrones' Has Belatedly Pwned Me...-game-thrones-season8-episode-5-memes-1.jpg

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    Last edited by taodemon; 6 Days Ago at 09:11 AM.

  4. #754
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    Quote Originally Posted by taodemon View Post
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is genius. 'Cuz it's so very, very, VERY true.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


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  6. #756
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    This is genius. 'Cuz it's so very, very, VERY true.
    .
    Not that I have high expectations for anything star wars after Riordan took a huge dump on the Last Jedi but I'll probably have to lower those expectations for these guys' star wars project after seeing what they have done with GOT over last couple seasons (without GRRM's books to go off of). I grew to despise GRRM's writing style as the books go went on but even with the tail end being more feast descriptions than plot he still had a better mind for it than these guys.

  7. #757
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    Quote Originally Posted by taodemon View Post
    This would be be the first time she did anything I could consider full mad/crazy, and yes they have been moving towards this since the beginning of the season with the forced conflict between her and jon and the killing of her dragon and friends but it still felt out of character for her.

    And again, why burn the city after it had surrendered and not just go straight for Cersei? Just seemed lazy as a whole just so they could have more cool looking dragonfire?
    Well, the show runners have said she lost it and went off, so there's that.

    But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

    People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.

    The North is ripe for rebellion, which would be troublesome for a new Queen to say the least. Especially since they won't have the wall and what is on the other side to keep them busy up there.

    There's only one dragon left, so Jon doesn't have one to ride anymore.

    By showing the sheer POWER OF Drogon, she gives everyone something to fear. Every, single, person no matter what station they hold.

    When she sits on the throne, only that fear will let her keep it. Nobles will fear her taking everything they hold before someone gets her, freezing them from making a move.

    This read makes her actions far more strategically sensible and rational. This would explain the terror tactics as opposed to going right for the Red Keep for a decapitating strike. Coldly rational, in the only way forward to take and hold power she sees, given other paths seem likely to lead to failure sooner rather than later.

    As I said, that is not the explicit show narrative, but it is one that fits the situation.
    .
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  8. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuiQuaeQuod View Post
    But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

    People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.
    Daenerys going full on Mad Queen was awesome, and inevitable. Best part of the show/season. And makes complete sense. I just think how they got there was pretty lame and lazy.


    Allowing the army and citizens of Kings Landing to live was bad strategy. Jon has the claim to the throne. The people of Kings Landing and the 7 kingdoms would support him over her. But now the only viable army left is Danny's. And she has a dragon. There's no way to take the throne militarily. The only move left is a knife in the back.
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  9. #759
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuiQuaeQuod View Post
    Well, the show runners have said she lost it and went off, so there's that.

    But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

    People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.

    The North is ripe for rebellion, which would be troublesome for a new Queen to say the least. Especially since they won't have the wall and what is on the other side to keep them busy up there.

    There's only one dragon left, so Jon doesn't have one to ride anymore.

    By showing the sheer POWER OF Drogon, she gives everyone something to fear. Every, single, person no matter what station they hold.

    When she sits on the throne, only that fear will let her keep it. Nobles will fear her taking everything they hold before someone gets her, freezing them from making a move.

    This read makes her actions far more strategically sensible and rational. This would explain the terror tactics as opposed to going right for the Red Keep for a decapitating strike. Coldly rational, in the only way forward to take and hold power she sees, given other paths seem likely to lead to failure sooner rather than later.

    As I said, that is not the explicit show narrative, but it is one that fits the situation.
    In light of their next gig in the Star Wars Universe....Drogon as Death Star.

    General Tagge: That's impossible! How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?
    Grand Moff Tarkin: The regional governors now have direct control over their territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battle station.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  10. #760
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    I would have felt it more appropriate and in character for her had they depicted it as based on the tactics/reality of the situation more than the raging mad reasoning that they went with in the episode. But who knows maybe that was intentional to try and throw us off. We might find out next episode I guess. I say "might" because they has been way too many things that seemed to deserve an explanation from this season alone that they have completely ignored so far (Bran worging the flock of crows etc).

    Maybe she will try to have her dragon burn Jon only to have him not burn, while that would be cool they have seemed to be intentionally avoiding cool this season so probably unlikely to happen.

  11. #761
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    Jaime explaining why he killed the Mad King. Sounds just like Daenerys.

    “Have you heard of wildfire? The Mad King was obsessed with it," Lannister said. "He loved to watch people burn, the way their skin blackened and blistered and melted off their bones. He burned lords he didn’t like. He burned hands who disobeyed him. He burned anyone who was against him. Before long, half the country was against him. Aerys saw traitors everywhere. So he had his pyromancers place caches of wildfire all over the city. Beneath the Sept of Baelor and the slums of Flea Bottom. Under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself.”

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  12. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Daenerys going full on Mad Queen was awesome, and inevitable. Best part of the show/season. And makes complete sense. I just think how they got there was pretty lame and lazy.
    Sums it up. Sadly.


    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ
    Well, the show runners have said she lost it and went off, so there's that.
    Quote Originally Posted by QQQ
    But, I have seen some people saying what she did was very rational. And their arguments make sense too.

    People are clearly trying to put Jon on the throne, well before the burning. Even though he does not want it, she knows people are striving to do it.

    The North is ripe for rebellion, which would be troublesome for a new Queen to say the least. Especially since they won't have the wall and what is on the other side to keep them busy up there.

    There's only one dragon left, so Jon doesn't have one to ride anymore.

    By showing the sheer POWER OF Drogon, she gives everyone something to fear. Every, single, person no matter what station they hold.

    When she sits on the throne, only that fear will let her keep it. Nobles will fear her taking everything they hold before someone gets her, freezing them from making a move.

    This read makes her actions far more strategically sensible and rational. This would explain the terror tactics as opposed to going right for the Red Keep for a decapitating strike. Coldly rational, in the only way forward to take and hold power she sees, given other paths seem likely to lead to failure sooner rather than later.

    As I said, that is not the explicit show narrative, but it is one that fits the situation.

    Hmm... feels like 'math we do as fans to make ourself feel better'.

    In other words, the show didn't give us the development we needed to see to believe in Dany's 'Mad Queen' turn (and the occasional foreshadowing does NOT equal such development), so, we have to invent other explanations. Such as 'it was a POWER move, Dany was being strategic, in her own very ruthless way'.

    Except that, the showrunners never got that memo. As you say, they explained it as 'Dany saw the Red Keep, and got angry'. And, watching the scene, Dany indeed sees the Red Keep, she cries, and then snarls, and then she and Drogon take off and go all 9/11 on King's Landing.

    IOW, it was an emotional decision, not a strategic one. And Dany really is her father's daughter, as the scene actually plays.

    Which is GREAT, actually, narratively-speaking, even as heart-rending as it is for all of us that have identified with the character for all these years. But it's an unearned turn in the show, because the showrunners fumbled the ball. Badly.

    Fade to black.

    And then buy the books (whenever they come out) because that's the only way we'll ever get true closure on this. I don't have high hopes for the final ep, except to look beyond the showrunners' bad execution to the bones of what GRRM intended.

    I think it's all we really have at this point.


    .....
    .
    Last edited by SystemShock; 5 Days Ago at 01:04 AM.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  13. #763
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    At least the memes are still good...

























    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  14. #764
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    Wow, meme #1 is actually real. And the petition is nearing 300K signers now.

    https://www.change.org/p/hbo-remake-...petent-writers
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


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    ...and Ghost, a bit jealous of the Rhaegal–Jon relationship...





    Last edited by SystemShock; 5 Days Ago at 03:40 AM.
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


  16. #766
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    That Euron meme is great. In the books he seemed like a cool character (maybe I'm remembering it wrong as it was a while ago). In the show he is just a giant douche.

    As I said, I could understand her doing it as a power move. I wouldn't have liked her decision to do so like I didn't like her burning the Tarley's or Varys for that matter, but it would have fit the character. It would have made more sense with how her character has developed over the first 7 seasons, but that was obviously not how they depicted it in that last episode at all.

    The visuals of her acting it out were great along with the destruction, but story wise none of the obvious forced build up to madness this season worked for me. It is similar to Luke believing he can turn darth f'n Vader from the darkside but giving up all hope on his nephew and going into exile to squeeze milk out of alien boobs while his nephew destroys everything he built. It just didn't fit the character.

    That change.org petition is up past 400,000 votes now too.

  17. #767
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    Ser Barristan tells Dany the truth about the Mad King
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    That episode just screamed "how fast can we be done". Besides not addressing a lot of the things that we wanted to know, including several events in this season alone they just made just about everyone pointless. I also got a similar vibe of them wanting to do something different for the sake of being different instead of ending things how they should have ended based on the characters they developed the other 7 seasons.

    The fact that Bran has the powers he does and was playing the game of thrones makes him an incredibly evil little **** for allowing everything that happened to happen just so he could get the throne.

    So many plot points completely wasted, Jon is a Targaryen but in the end that served no purpose other than to aid in Dany's maddening. Arya and her Horse last episode, completely pointless. Bran worging into crows for winterfell battle. Nightking with no explanation. North being its own kindgom seemed completely random (yes I know originally way way back they were it just didn't make sense in terms of the story so they could crown Sansa?).

    Bran needing a master of whispers? Really?

    So many things wrong, just barely scratching the surface.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taodemon View Post
    That episode just screamed "how fast can we be done". Besides not addressing a lot of the things that we wanted to know, including several events in this season alone they just made just about everyone pointless.
    You do know that if universal expansion keeps pace and Super Black Holes evaporate over trillions of centuries, that this is the fate of the known Universe in a long drawn out but foreseeable future. yay!

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    The ending had a number of weird turns for sure, including after seasons of wanting nothing to do with basically everything, the three eyed raven is cool with being king. I liked a couple of things though, like the sfx mentioned above, John walking off into the sunset with the free folk, the Unsullied being free of direct control (kind of), and Sansa being queen of an independent North. Everything else was kind of wonky and felt rushed.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

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    It was all just so....lazy. I mean, you go and change up Dany's makeup to sell the whole "mad queen" thing, then have her back this episode looking radiant, saying all the right things again? Why not at least have her acting a little twitchy? Instead you have her saying inspiring **** to the conquering masses? Dumb, lazy, and inconsistent. It would've made the sell of Jon killing her more believable. And that scene? Could you be more obvious?

    Drogon somehow intuiting that Jon gets a pass was moronic and lazy, too. Why not have the dragon fry him (more consistent with the show roots)? You even have not one, but two, already installed plot devices that save you from butthurting the Snow fanbois/girls; he can't die or he's immune to the fire since he's Targaryean. Writers, you're welcome.

    Sansa gets to secede? How about staying true to character (obvious problem lately) and having her respectfully respond with a 'nay', thereby still allowing Bran to assume role of King (they had a quorum already) while also showing she still had ambivalence about her perceived diminished authority? Again writers, you're welcome.

    The signing off vignettes could've only been more drecky had they paused them and added text saying what happens to each character in the future, ala 'Animal House.'

    Easily surpassed The Sopranos as the worst series finale I've ever seen. So disappointed, and I had low expectations.

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    They even did the cliche who stabbed who thing. /facepalm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wetworks View Post

    Easily surpassed The Sopranos as the worst series finale I've ever seen. So disappointed, and I had low expectations.
    Soprano's was the best series finale and those that didn't get it, didn't really watch the show. David Chase spelled it out for years.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

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    Inspiring chit? That's what you got from that? I got a whole Hitler Nuremberg Rally vibe from it, the quest for never-ending war by a leader who wouldn't be happy until the entire world was subjugated under her will.

    And you could tell right away that it was Jon stabbing Dany. While they're groping he sorta twists to the right to free up his hand to draw the dagger.
    "Damn. Y'all murdered the sh*t out that mutherf***er"

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush View Post
    Soprano's was the best series finale and those that didn't get it, didn't really watch the show. David Chase spelled it out for years.
    I agree. The finale is what I expected. It was satisfying. Anything different would invite comparisons to the Sopranos (Best finale EVAR!). Areya's ending was stoopid (she's now gonna wander west Westoros like Kaine from Kung-Fu dishing out wisdom and crazy ninja justice, I suppose). I admit to getting a little teary eyed seeing Jon and Ghost disappearing into the northern woods.
    You'd think we were here for something other than fun. - Ishmael

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