Johnny gets a (self inflicted) boo boo fixed
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  1. #1
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    Johnny gets a (self inflicted) boo boo fixed

    There there, you'll have two more purple heats soon for the time you fell down go boom and when you landed roughly on off the slide.

    Kerry's Vietnam Doc: Wound Accidentally Self-Inflicted

    The Navy medic who treated Sen. John Kerry after he sustained his first battlefield wound in Vietnam said Tuesday that he thought that the injury had been inadvertently self-inflicted - raising new questions about why Kerry sought a Purple Heart after the incident.

    Contacted by National Review Online, Dr. Louis Letson recalled that Kerry insisted during treatment that he was injured by enemy fire while his swift boat was patrolling the Mekong Delta on Dec. 2, 1968.

    However, "some of his crew confided that they did not receive any fire from shore," the Navy doc told NRO.

    Instead, his crewmen claimed that Kerry "had fired a mortar round at close range to some rocks on shore."

    One crewman told Letson that he thought Kerry's injury "was caused by a fragment ricocheting from that mortar round when it struck the rocks."

    Concluded Letson, "That seemed to fit the injury which I treated."

    He described the top Democrat's wound as "a small piece of metal sticking very superficially in the skin of Kerry's arm.

    "The metal fragment measured about 1 cm. in length and was about 2 or 3 mm in diameter. It certainly did not look like a round from a rifle."

    Letson recalled that he "simply removed the piece of metal by lifting it out of the skin with forceps.

    "I doubt that it penetrated more than 3 or 4 mm. It did not require probing to find it, did not require any anesthesia to remove it, and did not require any sutures to close the wound.

    "The wound was covered with a bandaid," Dr. Letson said.

    Based on the bandaid wound that was likely a result of a mortar round he fired, Kerry sought and eventually received his first Purple Heart.

    http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2...4/232350.shtml

  2. #2
    AIE
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    I am baffled at Repub. emphasis on this issue.

    What are you guys thinking? Clinton wasn't stupid enough to accuse his opponents of sexual indescretions. Emphasize the positive.

    Red Menace - can I get a ruling on this?

    Alex

  3. #3
    53T
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    You are correct

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex-in-Evanston
    What are you guys thinking? Clinton wasn't stupid enough to accuse his opponents of sexual indescretions. Emphasize the positive.


    Alex
    We repubs need to stay away from military mud-slinging in Kerry's direction. We need to emphasise that he is a communist who will squeeze every last dime out of every working person's pocket, until there are no more working people, and the means of production are controlled by the state.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 53T
    We repubs need to stay away from military mud-slinging in Kerry's direction. We need to emphasise that he is a communist who will squeeze every last dime out of every working person's pocket, until there are no more working people, and the means of production are controlled by the state.

    you ought to read up on communism. there'd be tons of working people. just no more owners, reaping the spoils of their labor. ;)

  5. #5

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    I don't think it's only a Republican effort

    Last night on CSPAN they had a press conference with 20 or so people who served over, with and for Kerry in Vietnam.

    They weren't Republican, nor wanted to discuss that. They were focused on clearing the air about Kerry and their time in Vietnam.

    They basically said to a man that he was a liar.

    Now I believe that IS important for the public to understand.

    Not only is he a liar, but he is one that when found out, changes his story. That is something that is interesting since he's acting like he and his backers are the voice of truth and righteousness, while Bush is the evil dictator.

    These guys were focused, didn't talk about any issue but Vietnam and time there, and gave a good account of themselves as just being witnesses to the actual events.

    Again, they said to a man that Kerry is a liar and one that brought shame and pain to a lot of people who didn't deserve it. Is that a good thing? Is that the president that we want to vote for.

    This anyone but Bush thing is ridiculous. If you bring someone, make the requirement that they are better. Kerry is not, he's worse.

  6. #6
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    HA! good one!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flip Flash

    Last night on CSPAN they had a press conference with 20 or so people who served over, with and for Kerry in Vietnam.
    Yeah, if they say it, it must be true. No one on the republican side would lie, or distort things would they?

    http://www.pandagon.net/mtarchives/002140.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip Flash
    They weren't Republican, nor wanted to discuss that. They were focused on clearing the air about Kerry and their time in Vietnam.
    If you believe that, I have an Arc to sell you.

  8. #8
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    here's a good breakdown of the issue.

    For those that care at least. Both info on the claims and some background on the people that are making them.

    http://www.mattgunn.com/#swiftboat50504

    It looks (from the military record) to me that Kerry learned a lot of lessons during his time in service, that he grew as a person, that he was tested under fire and showed that he had what it takes.
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    Splinter or log

    You don't get it and probably didn't see it.

    Only the one guy talked about his command issue. The rest spoke of their denial that any of the attrocities that Kerry claims he saw and that was done by his fellow Swiftboat guys.

    Bottom line is more than a hundred of them signed a document and spoke to the fact that they never saw it. Meaning, Kerry is a liar.

    The whole thing really boiled down to was his accounts of what happened true and they all said the answer is NO. He lied and made it look like he was the only person standing up for air support, human rights, etc.

    Since the boats work in groups of 3-5, then it really doesn't matter if the guys are on his boat of 5 guys or not because there are up to 25 on the same mission right next to him.

  10. #10
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    give me a break!

    Finals are coming up, loads of grading, and my time to craft well argued and researched arguments for this place goes WAY down.

    pandagon writing is actually pretty good, though very left leaning. And you are not engaging in agism are you? Can't 19 and 21 year olds have good ideas? People that age are dying every day, and the young ARE paying attention to this (draft anyone?).

    Please note that the pandagon story draws from and links to a story from a real newspaper.
    .
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  11. #11
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    Hmmm. A left-leaning blog site put together by a 21-yr-old and a 19-yr-old. A lot of worldly experience went into that one. It's good when both sides can point to such balanced and unbiased sources of info! C'mon, dr. hoo, I've come to expect better than that from you.

    From what I gather around here, any website from the left should be believed, but the right-leaning ones lack credibility. http://www.swiftvets.com/media1.htm

    Come election day (probably sooner), all of the VietNam-era crappola will be much ado about nothing.

  12. #12

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    I couldn't read the text

    I reading along and then bam. He drops the F-Bomb.

    I can't get past it and believe this person is educated or trying to speak fairly. Sorry.

    My whole point is did the attrocities happen or not. All of these guys say it did not.

    Sure the liberal slant is it MUST have happened, it's the military and an unrighteous action.

    All of these guys say it didn't happen.

    Kerry is the lone person who said it did. Who should you beleive.

    I believe them as there were over a hundred of them that attested to it and where there right with Kerry.

    I'm saying it looks like he's a liar and distorter of events to glorify himself and make others look bad (the whole military save him).

    You think he's got the stuff to be president. I'm not sure, which is a fair statement.

    While I'm looking to vote for the best person, I wish that person was better than Kerry. Not saying that Bush doesn't have his flaws and hasn't made mistakes, BUT if you have to chose between two not so great candidates, I'd default to the one who's stronger against terrorism.

    I believe terrorism is the number one threat to peace in the whole world. Those terrorist are muslims and there is no peace with them because it's not in their doctrine.

    Liberals believe you can negotiate and appease but ignore the roots and history of the muslim issue and beliefs. THey are not your friend nor peaceful neighbor. One call to Jihad could set them off. It's not so far to say Jihad is internal, but now it's external against the prostitute western culture.

  13. #13

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    You should be here!

    Quote Originally Posted by dr hoo
    Finals are coming up, loads of grading, and my time to craft well argued and researched arguments for this place goes WAY down..
    We don't do finals or term papers in the bourgeois sense. I don't, anyway.
    In case you're wondering, my avatar is a photo of a worker in chains, rising up to cast them off. An old piece of IWW (Wobbly) art.

  14. #14
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    let us not forget that one of o'neill's law partners was bush's chief counsel uring his second term as governor, and now holds some type of assistant counsel position in the government.

    but no republican or partisan ties among the swift boat crew, no sirree.

  15. #15
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    I'll clean it up for your puritan eyes.

    Nice way to avoid reading things, that. But here you go. I promise, no bad words that will make you turn away.

    Keep in mind that this information in this comes from Kerry's military records, as well as various other sources you can link to from the original post. There is only the one F and an h e double hockey stick further down the page, so you will be pretty safe.

    I doubt anything would ever convince you of anything, given that you turn your back on an argument from someone that you, in your own words, "believe this person is educated or trying to speak fairly." A little discomfort and you look away. I suggest you get over it. The world isn't pretty sometimes.


    May 5, 2004

    Swift Boat Veterans for a Big Lie

    A newly formed group called "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" has called upon John Kerry to release all his Vietnam service records. They also say Kerry is "unfit to be commander-in-chief."

    Let's put "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" under a microscope:

    1. Their call for Kerry to release his Naval records is a little odd, because, uh, Kerry's already released all his Naval records. The original documents can be downloaded from his web site here. I emailed "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" to let them know where they can find the records (although the exact words I used were slightly less polite). You may want to do the same.

    2. "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" says "We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam." That's just completely false, or, more diplomatically put, "a ******* lie." "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" also says, "They all signed a letter saying he is unfit to be commander-in-chief."
    Hmmm... There are 29 pages of officer evaluation reports on Kerry (scroll down to "Fitness Reports" if you want to download) that were filled out by Kerry's commanding officers while he served in the Navy. How in the world could "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" read the following descriptions from Kerry's C.O.'s as "unfit"?

    October 19, 1967, evaluation from Captain Allen W. Slifer:
    A top notch officer in every measurable trait. Intelligent, mature, and rich in educational background and experience, ENS Kerry is one of the finest young officers I have ever met and without question one of the most promising.

    September 3, 1968, evaluation from Captain E.W. Harper, Jr.:
    LTJG KERRY is an intelligent and competent young naval officer who has performed his duties in an excellent to outstanding manner.

    December 18, 1969, evaluation from LCDR George M. Elliott:
    In a combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action LTJG Kerry was unsurpassed. He constantly reviewed tactics and lessons learned in river operations and applied his experience at every opportunity. On one occasion while in tactical command of a three boat operation his units were taken under fire from ambush. LTJG Kerry rapidly assessed the situation and ordered his units to turn directly into the ambush. This decision resulted in routing the attackers with several enemy KIA.
    LTJG Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group. His bearing and appearance are above reproach. He has of his own volition learned the Vietnamese language and is instrumental in the successful Vietnamese training program.
    During the period of this report LTJG Kerry has been awarded the Silver Star medal, the Bronze Star medal, the Purple Heart medal (2nd and 3rd awards).

    Evaluation co-signed by Joseph Streuli and George M. Elliott on January 28, 1969, and March 17, 1969, respectively:
    ... exhibited all of the traits of an officer in a combat environment. He frequently exhibited a high sense of imagination and judgment in planning operations against the enemy in the Mekong Delta.

    March 2, 1970 evaluation from Admiral Walter F. Schlech:
    ... one of the finest young officers with whom I have served in a long naval career.

    I could continue with more positive evaluations of Kerry's service, but quite frankly all the excellence is boring me a bit.

    There aren't any negative descriptions. None.

    3. Perhaps more important than Kerry's C.O. evaluations are the evaluations of the men under his command. From USA Today (a Rupert Murdoch-owned paper) [correction: I'm wrong– USA Today, as several helpful readers have pointed out, is owned by Gannett, but the point remains that they're no lefty outfit. My apologies for the mistake]:

    Interviews with 18 officers and enlisted sailors who served with Kerry in Vietnam mostly portray a young leader with an aggressive command style. Many recall a warm, compassionate officer who cared deeply about his working-class crew. They also remember a warrior who ferried pregnant women and hungry villagers down river for medical care and food.

    They recall how he initiated water-balloon fights to break the tension. How he asked his crew to call him "John" on the river and "sir" back at base. And how he listened to their problems in a way that foretold a career in politics.

    "His concern for us was overwhelming," says Fred Short, a PCF-94 gunner's mate who would get the shakes when the adrenaline of battle wore off. "He would come around then and put his hand on your shoulder and ask if you're all right," says Short, 56, of North Little Rock "I never had another officer do that."

    Even those soldiers who didn't like Kerry had respect for him:

    "John was a master at looking out for John," says Larry Thurlow, a fellow boat commander. "John has never been bashful about saying, 'Man, I'm a war hero.' "

    Yet, except for one crewmate, even those who felt betrayed by Kerry for later leading Vietnam Veterans Against the War and who call themselves Bush supporters acknowledge that he showed courage under fire. "He was extremely brave, and I wouldn't argue that point," Thurlow says.

    Stephen Gardner is the one guy who served alongside Kerry who has negative things to say about his courage under fire (some "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" guys claim they "served with" Kerry, but actually I think it would be more accurate for them to say they served "around the same time," and perhaps on a different planet, than Kerry did):

    Stephen Gardner, a gunner's mate on PCF-44, spoke out for the first time last month after hearing conservative radio commentator Rush Limbaugh question Kerry's war credentials. Gardner, who says "this country's in a world of trouble" if the Democrat is elected president, calls Kerry a "hesitant" commander who shunned danger.

    Gardner, 56, claims Kerry retreated during a firefight under the pretense that he wanted to get Gardner medical attention. "It was a panic run," says Gardner, who calls his wound superficial. While he refuses to call Kerry a coward, he recalls "a guy who was protecting himself most of the time."

    That view does not square with the recollections of eight other enlisted sailors who served with Kerry and were interviewed for this story. Kerry and other PCF-44 veterans say the shooting was over when they turned back to base.

    "I never saw John back down from anything," crewmember Bill Zaladonis says.

    "I have no idea where he's coming from," Kerry says of Gardner.

    Rassmann also dismisses the idea of a cautious Kerry. He says he is alive today because of Kerry's courage during a vicious battle in March 1969. The special forces soldier had been blown off PCF-94 by a mine that also injured Kerry's right arm. Swimming in the river while being strafed from both banks, Rassmann was convinced he was about to die before Kerry's boat returned. As the soldier struggled to climb scramble nets draped over the boat's bow, Kerry reached down with his uninjured arm and pulled him on board.

    "He was frankly nuts coming up to the bow and exposing himself" to the barrage of bullets and mortars, Rassmann says.

    4. Okay, so who's behind "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth"? Two really terrific guys. Meet...

    Roy Hoffman

    Rear Admiral Hoffman (ret.) was a Captain who headed up a Coastal Surveillance Force unit under which Kerry served. Douglas Brinkley writes about him on pages 177 and 178 in Tour of Duty:

    ...The new commander, hawkish Captain Roy Hoffman was ecstatic about Sealords. He knew that military reputations were made in wartime, and he was determined to make his in Vietnam. What's more, he had a genuine taste for the more unsavory aspects of warfare, and truly wanted to smoke the Viet Cong out of their tunnels, burn their jungle outposts, and annihilate them once and for all. Decades later, many Swift boat veterans under Hoffman's command would compare him with the rough-hewn colonel in the movie Apocalypse Now who boasted that he "loved the smell of napalm in the morning." In short, Captain Hoffman sought to convince his Swift boat skippers to do whatever it took to notch splashy victories in the Mekong Delta and thereby get him promoted.

    Kerry would never forget how ardently Captain Hoffman lauded the exploits of one "enterprising officer" from the Danang Swift division. The officer had surprised some thirty Vietnamese who were fishing in round, floating baskets just off the shore of a peninsula in an area that was, unfortunately for them, a free fire zone. Hoffman considered it ideal military thinking that the Swift skipper had shown the presence of mind to sneak his boat in between the baskets and the shore, cutting the fisherman off from escape and then opening fire on them. All the baskets were sunk, and so were the fishermen. "Fantastic," Hoffman reportedly proclaimed upon hearing the news. Kerry himself would later hear Hoffman praise such "industriousness" at a remarkable meeting in Saigon. Clearly, the Navy had undergone a sea change. Not only were cowboy antics on the rivers of Vietnam no longer frowned upon, they were rewarded with medals.

    Sounds like one h*** of an American.

    Months ago, Hoffman told The Boston Globe that Kerry was a problem and asked to get more specific he said:

    "He was just going off on excursions that were not part of the plan at the time." But Hoffman said those problems were corrected and that he admired the gutsy way Kerry later went after the enemy.

    It sounds like Hoffman values ingenuity less than gutsiness, and perhaps discretion least of all.

    The other "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth" point person is...

    John O'Neill

    After Kerry made a mark as an anti-war veteran in 1971, he earned a spot on Nixon's enemies list. On the Nixon tapes, White House special counsel Charles Colson can be heard assuring Nixon that "We'll keep hitting him [Kerry], Mr. President." In addition to putting Kerry under FBI surveillance, Colson and Nixon recruited cleancut Vietnam vet and toe-the-line right-wing ideologue John O'Neill, who had an hour-long meeting with the President in which Nixon coached him to "Give it to him, give it to him." I've seen a picture of O'Neill and Nixon sitting in front of that White House fireplace. I suppose O'Neill saw his "Kerry character assassination" assignment from Nixon as a 33 year gig.

    Although O'Neill had taken over Kerry's Swift boat command after he left Vietnam, before they met on a Dick Cavett Show debate he had never seen Kerry in person. But he despised him. He admonished Kerry everywhere for standing up against Nixon: "The President does our talking for us, as with most Americans. Mr. Kerry certainly does not."

    33 years ago O'Neill wanted everyone to shut up so Richard Nixon could lay down the law, just as I'm sure he'd like to crush all dissenting voices to Bush's today. John Kerry stood up then to Nixon, and he stands up now to Bush.

    According to Brinkley, O'Neill "truly believed in the U.S. incursions into Cambodia and Laos." That's pretty much all you need to know about the guy, that he would provide unwavering support for a war in Cambodia that was not only blatantly illegal, entirely secret, and abhorrently inhumane, it was also a complete tactical failure. It accomplished absolutely nothing except multiples of thousands of deaths of poor Cambodians. I can't even begin to understand somebody whose ideology is so unclean that he can see goodness in that. You could take a stroll with O'Neill and spot some dogshit and he'd try to convince you that it was a delicious green apple.

    Tomorrow, I'll get a little deeper into O'Neill's ideology and the roots of his hatred for Kerry...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flip Flash

    I believe terrorism is the number one threat to peace in the whole world. Those terrorist are muslims and there is no peace with them because it's not in their doctrine.

    Liberals believe you can negotiate and appease but ignore the roots and history of the muslim issue and beliefs. THey are not your friend nor peaceful neighbor. One call to Jihad could set them off. It's not so far to say Jihad is internal, but now it's external against the prostitute western culture.
    We are not their friend or peaceful neighbor either it seems. Bush seems ready and willing to call a Jihad of his own--Christian vs Muslim. I don't want any part of that and I don't think the majority of the US population does either. Do you really believe that what Bush has done or plans to do is going to protect us from terrorism? Do you think we are safer than before we invaded Iraq? I don't.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  17. #17
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    "The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth also demanded that Kerry ask the Navy to independently release all of his Navy service records. Campaign spokesman Michael Meehan said Kerry has released all of the records the Navy gave Kerry.

    Among the glowing reports released by Kerry's campaign were some signed more than 35 years ago by those involved in the new anti-Kerry group.

    Members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth say they have nothing to do with Bush's re-election campaign.

    But Kerry defenders said the new group continues a pattern of political attacks on veterans who oppose Bush or Republicans.

    The attacks, they said, began on Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., in the 2000 Republican primaries and continued in the 2002 election, against former Democratic Sen. Max Cleland of Georgia.

    Kerry's critics ``don't really understand the political implications of what is going on here'' said former swift boat commander Wade Sanders, a Kerry defender.

    Retired Navy Capt. George M. Elliott, of Lewes, Del., described Kerry's judgment as ``unsurpassed'' in a combat evaluation more than 35 years ago. Elliott was also among those who defended Kerry's heroism at a press conference near the end of a tough 1996 Senate campaign.

    But Elliott joined the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth group Tuesday. He said atrocities described by Kerry ``did not happen'' and that none of his subordinates in Vietnam - including Kerry - had reported atrocities to him."


    This from detnews.com.

    Interesting no? Should we believe what they said 35 years ago or what they say today?

    POLITICS.

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