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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    Nobody is buying a Corvette for fuel economy. But if they were, it's actually a class leader if you stay off the throttle. With cylinder deactivation and tall gearing, Corvettes are known to get 30mpg+ in highway cruising (notwithstanding official EPA numbers). Ferrari/Lambo types don't come anywhere close.

    You can get big power out of small motors. Heck, group B cars were getting 600+hp out of 2 liter 4cyl engines as far back as the mid 1980s. More modern tuners have done 2,000hp out of 2 liters. But the trick is getting big power WITH track reliability and good driveability. It can be done, but not cheaply. Don't get me wrong, I love forced induction and own two performance cars with it, but there's a lot to be said about the simplicity and reliability of natural aspiration. The higher-output versions of this car (z06/zr1) will likely be turbocharged.

    I'd also note that while the LS/LT motors have a lot of displacement, they are fairly physically compact and light weight. A fully-dressed 6 liter LS motor is only ~100lbs heavier than the aluminum block 2-liter in my Alfa Romeo, and you can fit an LS/LT in just about anything. That's partially a byproduct of the pushrod design, but the dry-sump oil system helps as well.

    As for hybrids. I don't see the point. Again, nobody is buying these for fuel economy, and few are buying them as daily drivers. If you have unlimited budgets, hybrids can be used very effectively to boost performance, but there was absolutely no way Chevy was getting this under $60k with a hybrid. However, It wouldn't surprise me if z06/zr1 versions use some sort of flywheel based mild hybrid tech. The NSX which uses a smaller motor with a hybrid, is slower than the c8 and costs three times as much. Not a compelling package if you ask me.
    Of course those buying these do not do so for fuel economy, but doesn't mean they don't care about it. You just reinforced my point by citing ways GM did to increase fuel economy. Without a manual offering, the C8 won't have that 1-4 gear skip, yet another ploy GM used to improve mileage. Why bother with all these if buyers do not care about fuel economy? Sure, there's CAFE standards GM has to meet, but doesn't make sense to have such large displacement just to have all these fuel saving measures to effectively cut it in half, where I suspect majority of time the mode these engines will spend under.

    I am NOT suggesting that Corvette should have a 2 liter turbo whistling four banger either, instead, a smaller sized higher revving NA V8 would broaden its appeal beyond the current demographics of a Corvette owner.

    Hybrid/electric technology in sports cars is not about fuel economy, it is all about power delivery. Have you ever driven a Tesla? If not, go try one and you will quickly realize the handicap of the IC engine when compared with an electric motor. There is no valve train, no reciprocating mass, no linear to rotational energy conversion, and no loss inducing gear reduction/transmission. Instead, one simply experience the most pure form of energy conversion from potential to kinetic, instantaneously. Isn't that what most sports car junkies live for?

    The reality is that the current auto horsepower race has gone off the rails, especially here in the US. Having driven in Europe, I found it rather comical to come back and see people driving all these big engine vehicles at US highway speeds. Sure, some can get up there in 2.9 seconds, but really? Unless one plans to track these, driving a car this like on public roads, using less than 5% of its potentials 95% of the time, is a total waste of a car.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    The reality is that the current auto horsepower race has gone off the rails, especially here in the US. Having driven in Europe, I found it rather comical to come back and see people driving all these big engine vehicles at US highway speeds. Sure, some can get up there in 2.9 seconds, but really? Unless one plans to track these, driving a car this like on public roads, using less than 5% of its potentials 95% of the time, is a total waste of a car.
    It's called status symbol. It sure turns heads. Some people enjoy that.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    Of course those buying these do not do so for fuel economy, but doesn't mean they don't care about it. You just reinforced my point by citing ways GM did to increase fuel economy. Without a manual offering, the C8 won't have that 1-4 gear skip, yet another ploy GM used to improve mileage. Why bother with all these if buyers do not care about fuel economy? Sure, there's CAFE standards GM has to meet, but doesn't make sense to have such large displacement just to have all these fuel saving measures to effectively cut it in half, where I suspect majority of time the mode these engines will spend under.

    I am NOT suggesting that Corvette should have a 2 liter turbo whistling four banger either, instead, a smaller sized higher revving NA V8 would broaden its appeal beyond the current demographics of a Corvette owner.

    Hybrid/electric technology in sports cars is not about fuel economy, it is all about power delivery. Have you ever driven a Tesla? If not, go try one and you will quickly realize the handicap of the IC engine when compared with an electric motor. There is no valve train, no reciprocating mass, no linear to rotational energy conversion, and no loss inducing gear reduction/transmission. Instead, one simply experience the most pure form of energy conversion from potential to kinetic, instantaneously. Isn't that what most sports car junkies live for?

    The reality is that the current auto horsepower race has gone off the rails, especially here in the US. Having driven in Europe, I found it rather comical to come back and see people driving all these big engine vehicles at US highway speeds. Sure, some can get up there in 2.9 seconds, but really? Unless one plans to track these, driving a car this like on public roads, using less than 5% of its potentials 95% of the time, is a total waste of a car.
    I seriously doubt a small displacement 8 would result in more buyers. The Corvette is ALREADY the top selling 2-seat sports car in the U.S. With a small high-revving v8, it would cost more, have less torque, and wouldn't get significantly better fuel economy (look at the fuel economy numbers on Mclarens and Ferraris using small displacement 8s). The lack of skip shift shouldn't make an appreciable dent- the DCT and software could be programmed to replicate that or more. Also, one of the beautiful things about Chevy LS/LT engines is that they are cheap and ubiquitous. The use of that motor and its variations in just about everything with 4 wheels is part of the reason why Corvette ownership costs are nowhere near that of other high-output sports cars.

    I've driven a Tesla and think quite highly of them, but Teslas still have limitations you don't get with internal combustion engines. Even the Model 3 Performance is basically a one-lap wonder before you are down on power. It won't last through a standard track day without needing a recharge, which means they are cumbersome to track until they start offering supercharger stations in the paddock. I think we are still ~10 years out from truly realizing the promise of an electric sports car.

    Torque-fill hybrids are a promising technology, but not viable at the Corvette's price point yet. However, flywheel based mild hybrid tech could very well becoming to future versions of the c8. One of the advantage of the big pushrod v8s is they make a lot of torque down low, so the need for electrification to make them feel responsive is much less acute.

    As far as "unless one plans to track these." Well that's just it: no point in buying any of these high-po cars unless you plan on tracking it. If I owned one, I most certainly would. I take my current cars to the track. That said, I appreciate the old farts who buy these as garage queens. It's why you can buy a 10 year old Corvette in perfect condition for 50% of the new price. A C5z06 or C6 is the best value going in the cheap speed department.

    For having fun on the street, a Mazda Miata is really all you need- a $5,000 NA/NB is all you need to spend. They are also great track cars, but nowhere near the adrenaline level of something like the c8.
    Last edited by nealric; 07-30-2019 at 05:19 AM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    Of course those buying these do not do so for fuel economy, but doesn't mean they don't care about it. You just reinforced my point by citing ways GM did to increase fuel economy. Without a manual offering, the C8 won't have that 1-4 gear skip, yet another ploy GM used to improve mileage. Why bother with all these if buyers do not care about fuel economy? Sure, there's CAFE standards GM has to meet, but doesn't make sense to have such large displacement just to have all these fuel saving measures to effectively cut it in half, where I suspect majority of time the mode these engines will spend under.

    I am NOT suggesting that Corvette should have a 2 liter turbo whistling four banger either, instead, a smaller sized higher revving NA V8 would broaden its appeal beyond the current demographics of a Corvette owner.

    Hybrid/electric technology in sports cars is not about fuel economy, it is all about power delivery. Have you ever driven a Tesla? If not, go try one and you will quickly realize the handicap of the IC engine when compared with an electric motor. There is no valve train, no reciprocating mass, no linear to rotational energy conversion, and no loss inducing gear reduction/transmission. Instead, one simply experience the most pure form of energy conversion from potential to kinetic, instantaneously. Isn't that what most sports car junkies live for?

    The reality is that the current auto horsepower race has gone off the rails, especially here in the US. Having driven in Europe, I found it rather comical to come back and see people driving all these big engine vehicles at US highway speeds. Sure, some can get up there in 2.9 seconds, but really? Unless one plans to track these, driving a car this like on public roads, using less than 5% of its potentials 95% of the time, is a total waste of a car.
    You can say that about any supercar - that itís a waste. And I agree to a point - if you arenít going to use it in such a way as to use its performance then whatís the point? The point is some people just love having a car like that. Iíd love to have a Ferrari or something similar and Iíd use it as it was intended, but some people just like to cruise around in a supercar. I have a buddy who has a Lamborghini. He will track is Atom but never the Lamborghini. He just likes driving it around.

    For me so far my 90 hp Civic has been enough fun for me but I think at some point Iíll own a md engine vette


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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    As far as "unless one plans to track these." Well that's just it: no point in buying any of these high-po cars unless you plan on tracking it. If I owned one, I most certainly would. I take my current cars to the track. That said, I appreciate the old farts who buy these as garage queens. It's why you can buy a 10 year old Corvette in perfect condition for 50% of the new price. A C5z06 or C6 is the best value going in the cheap speed department.

    For having fun on the street, a Mazda Miata is really all you need- a $5,000 NA/NB is all you need to spend. They are also great track cars, but nowhere near the adrenaline level of something like the c8.
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    For me so far my 90 hp Civic has been enough fun for me but I think at some point Iíll own a md engine vette
    Some people do take their fancy and not so fancy cars to the track, even Honda Civic.
    https://youtu.be/BmoEIyw1HFU?t=21

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    I seriously doubt a small displacement 8 would result in more buyers. The Corvette is ALREADY the top selling 2-seat sports car in the U.S.
    Yes, but I'm talking about targeting markets outside the US. As I recall, GM shrunk the C7 to make it more appealing to overseas buyers, where many countries tax cars based on their engine displacement. In this case, whatever the value proposition is diminished by having such large displacement.
    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    With a small high-revving v8, it would cost more, have less torque, and wouldn't get significantly better fuel economy (look at the fuel economy numbers on Mclarens and Ferraris using small displacement 8s).
    Like you said, people aren't buying these for their fuel economy, and would not be the motivation for going smaller. I just think higher revving engines add to the sports car experience, but that's just my opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    ...Also, one of the beautiful things about Chevy LS/LT engines is that they are cheap and ubiquitous.
    I agree that this engine has been refined to a very high degree for a pushrod design, but how much further can it go?
    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    I've driven a Tesla and think quite highly of them, but Teslas still have limitations you don't get with internal combustion engines. Even the Model 3 Performance is basically a one-lap wonder before you are down on power. It won't last through a standard track day without needing a recharge...
    Glad that you did and I'm not suggesting using Tesla as a track car. I drove a Model S for a year and it is way too heavy. I merely referenced it as its underlying technology is a game changer for automotive drivetrain design. As I said before, I'd be far more impressed if GM had incorporated some hybrid technology into the C8 and kept it reasonably priced.
    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    As far as "unless one plans to track these." Well that's just it: no point in buying any of these high-po cars unless you plan on tracking it. If I owned one, I most certainly would. I take my current cars to the track. That said, I appreciate the old farts who buy these as garage queens. It's why you can buy a 10 year old Corvette in perfect condition for 50% of the new price. A C5z06 or C6 is the best value going in the cheap speed department.

    For having fun on the street, a Mazda Miata is really all you need- a $5,000 NA/NB is all you need to spend. They are also great track cars, but nowhere near the adrenaline level of something like the c8.
    I also find it much more enjoyable to push a "ordinary" car like my 15 yrs old Acura TSX 6MT to its limits on my daily commute than trying to do so with my other garage "collections".

  7. #57
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  8. #58
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    Sold Out --- now being shopped around the cyber world that GM is claiming the first year of C8 production is close to being "sold out".

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/28/...arly-sold-out/

    Hype or possibility?
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    I agree that this engine has been refined to a very high degree for a pushrod design, but how much further can it go?
    I think IC engine power/efficiency is as high as it's going to get with current technology, gas mileage has increased mostly due to lower overall vehicle weight and increased transmission gears which lower engine rpm at hwy speeds.
    I'm not an electric car fan-boi but I do love how one of the advantages of electric motors is pretty much 100% torque at essentially 0 rpm as opposed to maximum torque values at ~3,700 rpm for IC engines.
    What I'm really looking forward to in the near-future are these camless IC designs, like the Koenigsegg below, and electrically driven turbo/superchargers.

    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    I think IC engine power/efficiency is as high as it's going to get with current technology, gas mileage has increased mostly due to lower overall vehicle weight and increased transmission gears which lower engine rpm at hwy speeds.
    I'm not an electric car fan-boi but I do love how one of the advantages of electric motors is pretty much 100% torque at essentially 0 rpm as opposed to maximum torque values at ~3,700 rpm for IC engines.
    What I'm really looking forward to in the near-future are these camless IC designs, like the Koenigsegg below, and electrically driven turbo/superchargers.

    Fuel economy has also increased due to direct injection, very high compression engines , better knock detection, and more advanced ECUs. You have little economy cars running 14:1 compression with 87 octane pump gas. Compression ratios that high used to be the domain of race cars running alcohol fuels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post
    I think IC engine power/efficiency is as high as it's going to get with current technology, gas mileage has increased mostly due to lower overall vehicle weight and increased transmission gears which lower engine rpm at hwy speeds.
    I'm not an electric car fan-boi but I do love how one of the advantages of electric motors is pretty much 100% torque at essentially 0 rpm as opposed to maximum torque values at ~3,700 rpm for IC engines.
    What I'm really looking forward to in the near-future are these camless IC designs, like the Koenigsegg below, and electrically driven turbo/superchargers.

    I was referring to the pushrod design. C8's LT2's has a specific output of about 79.3hp/liter, compared this with the latest Ferrari F140 NA engine used in the 812, has a specific output of about 121.4hp/liter. Using these numbers, it's easy to see the limits of the pushrod design.

    Camless valvetrain is intriguing, but I suspect whatever advantage it offers over traditional setup has little impact on mainstream auto industry, and will remain as niche technology. Case in point is the pneumatic valvetrain used in F1 engines. This has been in use since the 70's, yet I am not aware this has ever made it into a road car one can buy. Another glooming prospect for IC engine is that several countries in the likes of UK and France have already decided to ban IC engines within next 20 yrs. The days for IC engines may be numbered.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    Another glooming prospect for IC engine is that several countries in the likes of UK and France have already decided to ban IC engines within next 20 yrs. The days for IC engines may be numbered.
    Yah, they pretty much are, even without regulations/bans.

    Once battery packs hit a certain cost-level and energy-density level, it's just going to be impossible for internal combustion cars to compete, except in a few specialized niches, such as sports cars (i.e. 'gotta hear that engine roar').

    When electric cars hit purchase-cost parity with similar IC cars, it'll be more or less game over for ICs, thanks to the EVs' lower maintenance and 'fueling' costs, plus all that fun low-end torque.

    And 'range anxiety' for EVs is starting to go bye-bye... the charger networks are expanding thanks to billions in new investment, and the cars are getting longer and longer-ranged as well. Tesla even has a 370-mile range model out now, which is on-par with how far most ICs go on a tankful.

    I think by 2030, EVs pass ICs in market share in the US. In China and Europe, maybe even a little sooner.
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Yah, they pretty much are, even without regulations/bans.

    Once battery packs hit a certain cost-level and energy-density level, it's just going to be impossible for internal combustion cars to compete, except in a few specialized niches, such as sports cars (i.e. 'gotta hear that engine roar').

    Once electric cars hit purchase-cost parity with similar IC cars, it's more or less game over for ICs, thanks to the EVs' lower maintenance and 'fueling' costs, plus all that fun low-end torque.

    And 'range anxiety' for EVs is starting to go bye-bye... the charger networks are expanding thanks to billions in new investment, and the cars are getting longer and longer-ranged as well. Tesla even has a 370-mile range model out now, which is on-par with how far most ICs go on a tankful.

    I think by 2030, EVs pass ICs in market share in the US. In China and Europe, maybe even a little sooner.
    .
    I figure once they perfect teleportation, it will all be obsolete - cargo ships, airplanes, cars, you name it


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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    I figure once they perfect teleportation, it will all be obsolete - cargo ships, airplanes, cars, you name it
    Yeah, 'cuz just like EVs going mainstream, that's just around the corner.

    Wait, what?
    .
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    Quote Originally Posted by upstateSC-rider View Post

    Great video and will do gang busters on F1, too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SystemShock View Post
    Once battery packs hit a certain cost-level and energy-density level, it's just going to be impossible for internal combustion cars to compete, except in a few specialized niches, such as sports cars (i.e. 'gotta hear that engine roar').

    When electric cars hit purchase-cost parity with similar IC cars, it'll be more or less game over for ICs, thanks to the EVs' lower maintenance and 'fueling' costs, plus all that fun low-end torque.

    And 'range anxiety' for EVs is starting to go bye-bye... the charger networks are expanding thanks to billions in new investment, and the cars are getting longer and longer-ranged as well. Tesla even has a 370-mile range model out now, which is on-par with how far most ICs go on a tankful.

    I think by 2030, EVs pass ICs in market share in the US. In China and Europe, maybe even a little sooner.
    .
    if you compare the Model 3 to its ICE equivalents, they are pretty much the same price. I know all the other EVs are muchmuch more expensive than their ICE counterparts, often double or more, but not the Model 3. Hence why it significantly outsells all the other models in its segment - entry level luxury cars

    BMW 3/4 series - starts at $40,000 - Model 3 starts at $40,000 ish. similar performance and luxury appointments
    BMW M3/4 runs $70,000 - Model 3 performance $70,000 (and beats it in pretty much every parameter and track test)

    C class, AMG, Audis, all very similarly priced to the Model 3

    How can Tesla do this? Well it remains to be seen if they can, but they have done a crafty job of cornering the 21700 battery supply the time being, and getting the volume of these batteries so high that cost has slid down a lot. Meanwhile the competitors have run up against a serious shortage of cells and had to scale back EV production - and thus impact the cost efficiency of building them.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    if you compare the Model 3 to its ICE equivalents, they are pretty much the same price. I know all the other EVs are muchmuch more expensive than their ICE counterparts, often double or more, but not the Model 3. Hence why it significantly outsells all the other models in its segment - entry level luxury cars

    BMW 3/4 series - starts at $40,000 - Model 3 starts at $40,000 ish. similar performance and luxury appointments
    BMW M3/4 runs $70,000 - Model 3 performance $70,000 (and beats it in pretty much every parameter and track test)

    C class, AMG, Audis, all very similarly priced to the Model 3

    How can Tesla do this? Well it remains to be seen if they can, but they have done a crafty job of cornering the 21700 battery supply the time being, and getting the volume of these batteries so high that cost has slid down a lot. Meanwhile the competitors have run up against a serious shortage of cells and had to scale back EV production - and thus impact the cost efficiency of building them.
    The Tesla doesnít beat any track oriented car, for the simple reason that it gets one lap and itís done.


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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    if you compare the Model 3 to its ICE equivalents, they are pretty much the same price. I know all the other EVs are muchmuch more expensive than their ICE counterparts, often double or more, but not the Model 3. Hence why it significantly outsells all the other models in its segment - entry level luxury cars

    BMW 3/4 series - starts at $40,000 - Model 3 starts at $40,000 ish. similar performance and luxury appointments
    BMW M3/4 runs $70,000 - Model 3 performance $70,000 (and beats it in pretty much every parameter and track test)

    C class, AMG, Audis, all very similarly priced to the Model 3

    How can Tesla do this? Well it remains to be seen if they can, but they have done a crafty job of cornering the 21700 battery supply the time being, and getting the volume of these batteries so high that cost has slid down a lot. Meanwhile the competitors have run up against a serious shortage of cells and had to scale back EV production - and thus impact the cost efficiency of building them.
    One intangible I like to mention for EV is the notion of guiltless acceleration. As someone that lived with a Model S, you can stump on the go pedal at every opportunity to do so, without tanking the gas memileage like an ICE. The range doesn't seem to change whether I drive it hard or easy. Even if it does, it is only $8 to go 260 miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nova_rider View Post
    Even if it does, it is only $8 to go 260 miles.
    True Costs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    The Tesla doesnít beat any track oriented car, for the simple reason that it gets one lap and itís done.


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    that's sort of true, but some kinds of motorsports event are about 'one lap' like hill climbs, 1/4 mile, and the Nurburgring, which electrics have recently slain.

    I wonder how many M3s actually get even one hour of track time in their lifetime? probably a single digit figure. On public roads, the Tesla performance is going to deliver hours of the same kind of fun as an M3 IMHO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    that's sort of true, but some kinds of motorsports event are about 'one lap' like hill climbs, and the Nurburgring, which electrics have recently slain.

    I wonder how many M3s actually get even one hour of track time in their lifetime?
    Dunno. But does it matter if you're driving a KIA Swinger for the same price as the New Corvette having tons more power and torque looking exotic at stop lights with a complete centre roof extract vs. a Korean car with nice and touchy feeling dash board switches and a hatch back?



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  22. #72
    Sweet Potato Kugel
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    I got my order in prior to the "shut-down."
    In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
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  23. #73
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    that's sort of true, but some kinds of motorsports event are about 'one lap' like hill climbs, 1/4 mile, and the Nurburgring, which electrics have recently slain.

    I wonder how many M3s actually get even one hour of track time in their lifetime? probably a single digit figure. On public roads, the Tesla performance is going to deliver hours of the same kind of fun as an M3 IMHO.
    One lap is actually more like 6 laps, since participants get more than one attempt to set their best time. And realistically, while electric cars may be quicker around the Nurburgring, in a practical sense none of us can afford that kind of performance.

    The two main limitations are batteries and cost. I think they will eventually get that technology worked out, but it isn't there yet. I'll be the first one in line - nothing like charging your electric car for free using solar panels or a wind turbine and then destroying supercars at a track day.
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    A change of this magnitude was inevitable. The Corvette has always been the top of the line car in terms of performance at GM, but with other cars approaching the performance of the front engine Corvette, they had to up their game or their performance line would stagnate.
    This is interesting, because it was top of the line for Chevy, but Chevy was never top of the line. In fact, before this Vette, the value came from going to the GM parts bin (aka cutting corners). this new one will get to go up against the exotics. The Corvette has never been an exotic, but now it has a fighting chance. It looks as if it is actually properly built.

    Let's be honest, the Ford GT is crazy expensive, but even with that Eco Boost V6, it has shown it's earned it's place amongst the exotics. Ford isn't an exotic car company but they built an exotic car with exclusivity, that sells for half a million dollars. To prove that it is worth it, the car even won the 24 Hour Le Mans. That's a feat GM will need to pursue to get respect from the big boys, or it will continue to be a Blue collar knock off. If the rumored ZR1 replacement, Zora model comes, I think that will be the car that will have a fighting chance to compete against the Ford GT. By the way, that WILL have a six -figure price tag. They claim the fastest Vette yet, but I will pass judgement on that until I see numbers from actual editorials.

    I believe that this car has lost most of what makes a Corvette a Corvette, but I also think it's a better car. Who cares if one car has driver's aides and the other does not. Being a better driver mean's nothing if you're not first across the finish line.
    Last edited by terbennett; 08-02-2019 at 09:11 AM.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by terbennett View Post
    This is interesting, because it was top of the line for Chevy, but Chevy was never top of the line. In fact, before this Vette, the value came from going to the GM parts bin (aka cutting corners). this new one will get to go up against the exotics. The Corvette has never been an exotic, but now it has a fighting chance. It looks as if it is actually properly built.

    Let's be honest, the Ford GT is crazy expensive, but even with that Eco Boost V6, it has shown it's earned it's place amongst the exotics. The car even won the 24 Hour Le Mans to prove it. That's a feat GM will need to pursue to get respect from the big boys, or it will continue to be a Blue collar knock off. If the rumored ZR1 replacement, Zora model comes, I think that will be the car that will have a fighting chance to compete against the Ford GT.

    I believe that this car has lost most of what makes a Corvette a Corvette, but I also think it's a better car. Who cares if one car has driver's aides and the other does not. Being a better driver mean's nothing if you're not first across the finish line.
    Good analysis. I think when the Ford GT came back into production in 2016, everyones' jaws hit the floor, as did the drool. And then everyone thought, "Sigh, but it's $400,000... if ONLY someone would do a car that's kinda like that, but for an attainable price."

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