the steel curtain
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  1. #1
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    the steel curtain

    best defensive line. evar

    and if, by some miracle, you got past them, ham was good, but 58 was back there waiting to rip your neck off. lambert was top five all time imo. mean mothereffer, all his teeth knocked right the eff out.


    purple people eaters 2nd
    doomsday close third.

    fearsome foursome honorable mention.

  2. #2
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    And the random thread of the week award goes to ...

    That said, the Bears in the '80s and the Eagles in the early '90s put together some gnarly D lines.
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    ... thought this thread was about the border fence...

    * not actually a Rock Star

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    Gotta give the Steelers of the 70's credit, they jumped on the Iron Curtain method of training early.

  5. #5
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    Jack Lambert is the best LB in my book . No one has come even close to him since his time .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mapeiboy View Post
    Jack Lambert is the best LB in my book . No one has come even close to him since his time .
    Lambert was an animal...truly....but,

    he was no where near the athlete Ray Lewis is.

    I saw Butkus play, Lambert Play, LT Play and every linebacker sine the 60's......Ray Lewis is better than all of them....quicker, at least as tough, able to cover the pass, and more athletic.

    IMO

    Len



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  7. #7
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    The Baltimore Ravens of 2000. Best. Defense. EVAR.

    +1000 on Len's comment about Ray Lewis.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyTooBad View Post
    The Baltimore Ravens of 2000. Best. Defense. EVAR.

    +1000 on Len's comment about Ray Lewis.
    Have to disagree......the greatest single season defense I've seen was the '85 bears, followed by the '00 Ravens....and the Ravens were a ways back.

    Steel Curtain was the best over an extended period of time (5 years or so).

    IMO

    Len
    Last edited by Len J; 02-23-2012 at 07:37 AM.



    "Evil....is the complete lack of Empathy!"

    ""We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act but a habit. " Aristotle

    No one is as bad as the worst thing they have done & no one is as good as the best thing they have done.........think of that when you feel like you understand someone.

  9. #9
    your text here
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    da bears.1985, baby!
    if only they had won that phins game...

    speaking of the fish, what about the no-name defense?

    the problem with calling something the "best ever," especially in sports, is the general rule the landscape changes so much over time. you really have to go by decade, and even that doesnt count so much anymore.

    i think the closest to "the best" would have to be the 85 bears. they straddle a change in defensive schemes and ushered in a new age. i was only in 6th grade at the time, but it seemed they were pretty darned important. could also be the area in which i grew up and the area in which i currently live.

    i liken the importanace of that '85 bears defense to the bill walsh/joe montana era in sanfrancisco.
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  10. #10
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    I think its almost impossible to name a GOAT for any sport/position/side of the ball. How do you compare the Steel Curtain to the 2000 Ravens? The game was different then, the speed of all the players was different, and the size of the players was different.

    I'm a huge Steeler fan and am biased to think that the Steel Curtain was the best and that Lambert and Ham were amazing football players, but I can't say they were better or worse than anyone else. All I know is they were the best there was at the time.

    Imagine plopping a guy like Ray Lewis into the NFL in 1965. He'd kill people. Oh wait....he already has!! :ba dum bum:
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    I think you have to compare players to their peers to accurately measure up players of different eras.

    As much as I dislike Ray Lewis, he was so good, fast, and dominate at his position, that the Ravens were able to shape their defense around him. He covered the entire middle of the field so the corners and safety could focus on a smaller portion of the field. He helped out the outside linebackers so you couldn't outrun him wide, even with a head start. Running up the middle wasn't even an option.

    With that said, because he is old, I think he was actually a liability for the Ravens this year.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J View Post
    Have to disagree......the greatest single season defense I've seen was the '85 bears, followed by the '00 Ravens....and the Ravens were a ways back.
    WIthout looking it up, I think the Ravens allowed fewer points, BUT ... they didn't instill fear in opposing offenses the way the Bears did. And for me, you have to look at postseason performance to sort out the best of the best (which is why I consider the '89 Niners the greatest team of all time). '85 Bears: two straight shutouts and then the demolition of the Pats in the Super Bowl. No one really comes close, AFAIK.

    OTOH, you look at consistency and longevity, the coin flips to the Ravens. 12 years later and their D has been at or near the top just about every season.

    The Bears were clinging to relevancy when the '88 Niners walked into Soldier Field and wiped them out.


    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRider View Post
    Imagine plopping a guy like Ray Lewis into the NFL in 1965. He'd kill people. Oh wait....he already has!! :ba dum bum:
    ROFL.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrRoebuck View Post
    OTOH, you look at consistency and longevity, the coin flips to the Ravens. 12 years later and their D has been at or near the top just about every season.

    The Bears were clinging to relevancy when the '88 Niners walked into Soldier Field and wiped them out.
    bears crumbled due to the weight of the collective egos. have you seen the superbowl shuffle? but it extended past the players.
    in the locker before the game buddy ryan told the bears d he was leaving at the conclusion of the game. that pumped the guys up to win one for the buddy, but also further drove a wedge between offense and defense in chicago. the next season saw some injuries, a new d coordinator, and issues with the offense. during the superbowl they were so sure they would get back the next year, ditka let perry score a rushing TD before sweetness. and they never had another chanse to put walter in the end zone. that is one of only two regrets i have heard ditcka express (the other was a lopsided victory landry).

    funny how two of the defenses we are atalking about were coached at some time by a ryan.

    btw, while buddy was telling the defense he wouldnt be back, the honeybears were getting word they wouldnt be back the next year, either. and the bears have yet to win a ring since.
    I don't normally "do people." - Dr. Roebuck

  14. #14
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    You guys could be right about the '85 Bears. I don't know. Admittedly, I was wallowing in my own self pity because of that ****head Ursay pulling the Baltimore Colts out of Baltimore on a dark, rainy night. So I wasn't paying much attention to football back then (other than to be a Redskin hater). Plus, I was a freshman in college, so I was busy chasing girls.

    It is true about not being able to compare generations of players. And football is the worst for this kind of comparison.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HokieRider View Post
    I think its almost impossible to name a GOAT for any sport/position/side of the ball. How do you compare the Steel Curtain to the 2000 Ravens? The game was different then, the speed of all the players was different, and the size of the players was different.

    I'm a huge Steeler fan and am biased to think that the Steel Curtain was the best and that Lambert and Ham were amazing football players, but I can't say they were better or worse than anyone else. All I know is they were the best there was at the time.

    Imagine plopping a guy like Ray Lewis into the NFL in 1965. He'd kill people. Oh wait....he already has!! :ba dum bum:
    Imagine plopping a top five offence from 2011 into the 70's to play against a top five defense. The offense would eat them up. The defences weren't designed to stop a west coast style offense. The linebackers would be too slow and the d line unable to handle athletic quarterbacks who could scramble, run and throw lasers from any spot on the field. Today's O lines and blocking schemes would have a much easier time handling the D line of the 70's. Bigger, stronger, faster, quicker than anything a D line of the 70's experienced. 5 receiver sets would outrun the backfields more attuned to stopping the run. Sure, there were some good corners who could probably run and cover today's receivers but there wouldn't be enough of them. Dime defenses weren't invented yet and teams didn't carry enough d backs, especially corners, to handle a 5 receiver set. Linebackers would be overwhelmed when forced into receiver coverage and covering today's tight ends. It wouldn't be a pretty sight. That's why it's really impossible to compare different generations. You gotta compare them to their peers. That said, Da 85 Bears are the best and it really pains me to say that (see my avatar for a hint why). And Ray Lewis is the best linebacker ever to play the game.
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J View Post
    Lambert was an animal...truly....but,

    he was no where near the athlete Ray Lewis is.

    I saw Butkus play, Lambert Play, LT Play and every linebacker sine the 60's......Ray Lewis is better than all of them....quicker, at least as tough, able to cover the pass, and more athletic.

    IMO

    Len
    yeah lambert was a bit of a throwback to old school style, but he played that way better than anyone i ever saw in the modern era, man, what an ornery cuss, all the time, always pi55ed off and taking it out on rb's lol..


    i give you that taylor and lewis played different positions that require slightly different skill sets, a lot depending on who plays in front and on either side. ravens generally play a four that disallows anything up the middle. the down guys hold up downfield blocking and lewis goes nuts chasing anything that tries/manages to run off the corner or in short pass coverage. plus, they have suggs and suggs clone shutting off corners for anything even thinking about trying to go outside. great athletes, great scheme, impossible to beat, really, all you can hope for is a little time to complete dink and dunk once in a while and pray they get tired at the end of the game. otherwise, forget it. i agree, over the long haul, solid case for the best. and lewis is the anchor.

    but...

    lawrence taylor was just as fast, if not faster than ray lewis. a lot of lewis' speed is straight ahead, he's slightly less (ok, even slightly may be an exaggeration, but still less) effective going sideways. i dont think taylor full on lost speed in any direction. ever. plus taylor was just as mean when he wanted to be, absolutely destroyed running backs, big, small, quick, fast, whatever. ate them for breakfast on sunday. and then he went after the qb. when he started running over guards and tackles, the entire league worried about slowing him down and keeping him from killing the qb. and then the game changed...

    lewis is great, no doubt, but i think taylor was better, besides butkus, and maybe even including butkus, probably the greatest ever imo. he was universally feared, man, and he backed it up every sunday. on the field, absolutely superb...

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J View Post
    Have to disagree......the greatest single season defense I've seen was the '85 bears, followed by the '00 Ravens....and the Ravens were a ways back.

    Steel Curtain was the best over an extended period of time (5 years or so).

    IMO

    Len
    that's the thing, like who won the championships? and you cant always blame losing the bowl on your qb, although he can seem to be an appealing target if you fall short. i admit, the steelers had a great offense, backs, line, deep threats, qb with a cannon-- bradshaw was really the first and best modern qb imo--defense still wins the championship game. which begs the question, if these other d's are/were so great, why dont they have the rings to prove it? history is full of the also rans--tarkenton and the vikes, kelly and the bills, four times to the bowl. four times to lose it all. as much as i love watching the ravens, and acknowledging the fact that they did get it once, the ravens otherwise always seem to fall short. good as they were, they didnt keep winning championships, and i dont think that's about oh our quarterback sucks.

    the curtain won it four times, four times, man, and were universally acknowledged as the best while they did it. defense wins championships, quarterbacks dont lose them....

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by easyridernyc View Post
    lewis is great, no doubt, but i think taylor was better, besides butkus, and maybe even including butkus, probably the greatest ever imo. he was universally feared, man, and he backed it up every sunday. on the field, absolutely superb...
    Though you can't really compare them because Taylor played outside (or wherever the hell he wanted to line up) and Lewis plays middle, I agree that Taylor was better. The guy changed the way offenses approached the game.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by easyridernyc View Post
    yeah lambert was a bit of a throwback to old school style, but he played that way better than anyone i ever saw in the modern era, man, what an ornery cuss, all the time, always pi55ed off and taking it out on rb's lol..


    i give you that taylor and lewis played different positions that require slightly different skill sets, a lot depending on who plays in front and on either side. ravens generally play a four that disallows anything up the middle. the down guys hold up downfield blocking and lewis goes nuts chasing anything that tries/manages to run off the corner or in short pass coverage. plus, they have suggs and suggs clone shutting off corners for anything even thinking about trying to go outside. great athletes, great scheme, impossible to beat, really, all you can hope for is a little time to complete dink and dunk once in a while and pray they get tired at the end of the game. otherwise, forget it. i agree, over the long haul, solid case for the best. and lewis is the anchor.

    but...

    lawrence taylor was just as fast, if not faster than ray lewis. a lot of lewis' speed is straight ahead, he's slightly less (ok, even slightly may be an exaggeration, but still less) effective going sideways. i dont think taylor full on lost speed in any direction. ever. plus taylor was just as mean when he wanted to be, absolutely destroyed running backs, big, small, quick, fast, whatever. ate them for breakfast on sunday. and then he went after the qb. when he started running over guards and tackles, the entire league worried about slowing him down and keeping him from killing the qb. and then the game changed...

    lewis is great, no doubt, but i think taylor was better, besides butkus, and maybe even including butkus, probably the greatest ever imo. he was universally feared, man, and he backed it up every sunday. on the field, absolutely superb...
    Quote Originally Posted by DrRoebuck View Post
    Though you can't really compare them because Taylor played outside (or wherever the hell he wanted to line up) and Lewis plays middle, I agree that Taylor was better. The guy changed the way offenses approached the game.
    Respectfully, I disagree. I understand but I disagree. I follow the NFC east very closely being an Eagles Fan. Taylor was better than any linebacker in history at only one thing, rushing the passer. At that he was awesome....and he did change the game. But, He was horrible against screen passes (which were used to slow him down), only slightly above average against the run, and was very weak at pass coverage, even of backs. OTOH, Lewis has done all of those things at a very high level his entire career. He's not as good a blitzer as Taylor, but he is significantly better agains the run, the screen pass and covering backs and TE's in the passing game.

    EDIT to add......and Lewis is a much better on field general/coach and off field leader. Taylor was always about Taylor. That being said......Talor, Butkus and Lweis are the only 3 in the conversation IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by easyridernyc View Post
    that's the thing, like who won the championships? and you cant always blame losing the bowl on your qb, although he can seem to be an appealing target if you fall short. i admit, the steelers had a great offense, backs, line, deep threats, qb with a cannon-- bradshaw was really the first and best modern qb imo--defense still wins the championship game. which begs the question, if these other d's are/were so great, why dont they have the rings to prove it? history is full of the also rans--tarkenton and the vikes, kelly and the bills, four times to the bowl. four times to lose it all. as much as i love watching the ravens, and acknowledging the fact that they did get it once, the ravens otherwise always seem to fall short. good as they were, they didnt keep winning championships, and i dont think that's about oh our quarterback sucks.

    the curtain won it four times, four times, man, and were universally acknowledged as the best while they did it. defense wins championships, quarterbacks dont lose them....
    Not sure why you are arguing........All the teams I mentionsed won championships.

    Here is the point I'm trying to make.......The 85 bears, or the '00 Ravens, compared to any one year the Steel curtain defense had, (Pick any one year) were better........for that one year, I'd take either of those defenses.....OTOH, Over any 5 year period, the steelers were better.

    IMO

    Len
    Last edited by Len J; 02-23-2012 at 01:02 PM.



    "Evil....is the complete lack of Empathy!"

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Len J View Post
    Respectfully, I disagree. I understand but I disagree. I follow the NFC east very closely being an Eagles Fan. Taylor was better than any linebacker in history at only one thing, rushing the passer. At that he was awesome....and he did change the game. But, He was horrible against screen passes (which were used to slow him down), only slightly above average against the run, and was very weak at pass coverage, even of backs. OTOH, Lewis has done all of those things at a very high level his entire career. He's not as good a blitzer as Taylor, but he is significantly better agains the run, the screen pass and covering backs and TE's in the passing game.

    EDIT to add......and Lewis is a much better on field general/coach and off field leader. Taylor was always about Taylor. That being said......Talor, Butkus and Lweis are the only 3 in the conversation IMO.



    Not sure why you are arguing........All the teams I mentionsed won championships.

    Here is the point I'm trying to make.......The 85 bears, or the '00 Ravens, compared to any one year the Steel curtain defense had, (Pick any one year) were better........for that one year, I'd take either of those defenses.....OTOH, Over any 5 year period, the steelers were better.

    IMO

    Len
    yeah i guess that's a good distinction to make...over one year the bears or ravens, over four or five years the steelers. now...you ask a raven or a steeler fan who's d is/was better overall and over the course of the franchise histories...

    then you got a fight on your hands.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyTooBad View Post
    You guys could be right about the '85 Bears. I don't know. Admittedly, I was wallowing in my own self pity because of that ****head Ursay pulling the Baltimore Colts out of Baltimore on a dark, rainy night. So I wasn't paying much attention to football back then (other than to be a Redskin hater). Plus, I was a freshman in college, so I was busy chasing girls.

    It is true about not being able to compare generations of players. And football is the worst for this kind of comparison.
    You are getting rep for calling Ursay a $$$$head.
    "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

  22. #22
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    I'd take the 85 Bears if forced, but it's silly: no football team would be any good against a team from the future.

    One peek at the average height/weight-to-speed ratio of NFL linemen over the past 40 years is terrifying: they've gotten so much bigger and faster it's hard to fathom.

    Alan Page was 6'4" and played HOF-caliber defensive tackle for one of the league's great defensive units...at 240 pounds (225 towards the end of his career when he started marathoning in the off-season).

    Page in his prime would be useless in today's NFL, if for nothing else than lack of mass. Haloti Ngata is the same height, weighs 350 and is as fast as any DT in the modern NFL: 100+ pounds more than Page, moving faster! These dudes are a whole different kind of cat.
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  23. #23
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    The average weight of the Washington Redskins Hogs offensive line was 279lbs.
    "There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." --A. Einstein

  24. #24
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    I'm kinda surprised no one mentioned the d-line of the Saints ('Aints) of the early 90's....sure the rest of the team suked but that d-line is still considered one of the best...if not the best.

    Also no mention of the Orange Crush Bronco's...

    Flame on.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrider View Post
    The average weight of the Washington Redskins Hogs offensive line was 279lbs.
    Roughly the weight of Daunte Culpepper...

    Anyhoo, think of how dominant the Hogs were, in both size and strength! The average weight of an NFL O-line cracked 300 pounds/player over a decade ago: in 2010, there were 532 300+-pound players on NFL rosters.

    In 1990 there were three.
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