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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    And most people typically listen at low power, i.e. 1 watt. (= 85 to 90 dBa sound levels, which is fairly loud). So, there is more there than "same specs = same sound".
    I would like to see what happens when they are double blind tested at matched level.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post


    When it comes to hearing, even the healthiest ears (age 18 - 21) cannot hear beyond 20KHz or below 20Hz or amplifier distortion below 0.1% which is easily achievable nowadays. High end audio electronics with those marketing hypes I mentioned above may improve the sound quality even further beyond what is already in inaudible area (requires sensitive measuring devices to tell) is just that, marketing hype. So your example of comparing cycling with audio electronics doesn't hold water. Nothing personal, just sharing the audio electronics data out there.
    I appreciate a good conversation anytime especially when there are good merits on both sides of the coin. When it comes to hi-fi it is a touchy subject. Back in the day, the gold standard for speakers was the Bose 901's which to an audiophile was an affront. And yet that was the system that many held in high regards as tops in speaker sound. And this in part goes to what Mapei was talking about.

    The Bose as you know was nothing special in terms of construction or design but instead relied on equalization. Tricking the brain into hearing something that really isn't there. I think society as a whole has become used to mediocrity as the popularity of mp3's has taken hold. Most newer stereo equipment have usb input ports for source players such as cell phones, mp3 player, laptop or such.

    As for using more exotic materials in esoteric audio equipment, does it make it sound better? That is questionable but it should make it more robust & theoretically be more durable & thus retain its value better. As to Jay, don't take offence to my remarks as criticisms of your JVC unit. I've owned similarly aged equipment that failed & as I said, it wasn't worth the cost to repair it when that money could have been put towards a quality, newer 2nd hand unit. I've seen quality Rotel & Nad units go for a good deal on the bay. Heck I would even scoop up a Carver in the $140 range if available.

    The JVC's are great equipment & I would say the equivalent of a Civic in car terms. Would you throw good money at a 30 yr old civic to fix it up?? Classic, vintage equipment of any kind regardless of condition will always have a higher intrinsic value & deemed worthy of repair. Classic mustangs, GTO's no matter the condition is always deemed repairable. For electronics, if you had something like a Krell or Threshold on your hands then of course its worthwhile to fix it up. But for a 30 yr old receiver that has given you the maximum amount of enjoyment possible, is it still worthwhile to repair it??

    Not in my books especially when its given you so many years of service. Rationality vs sentimentality. Sentimentality has always kicked me in the ass so take your pick. No offence implied. In terms of bike comparisons, there are many that come here asking for upgrade advice all the time. However are their bikes worthwhile of such upgrades when its a 20 yr old bike of no major distinction??? Or the person that just got into cycling 2 yrs ago & now want to upgrade their entry level bike with carbon wheels, new groupset....sound familiar??? Again rationale vs sentiment.
    Last edited by stan01; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:47 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    I appreciate a good conversation anytime especially when there are good merits on both sides of the coin. When it comes to hi-fi it is a touchy subject. Back in the day, the gold standard for speakers was the Bose 901's which to an audiophile was an affront. And yet that was the system that many held in high regards as tops in speaker sound. And this in part goes to what Mapei was talking about.
    That was before I got into home audio so I don't have firsthand experience with Bose but I do know that Altec Lancing and JBL (both started by John B. Lansing) were the leading speaker techs back in the day in both commercial and consumer market.

    As for the term hi-fi, the bottleneck is still the speakers and room acoustics. The rest before that in the chain of connections are very matured technology, especially digital audio in terms of its ability to faithfully reproduce the mastered audio source.

    As for using more exotic materials in esoteric audio equipment, does it make it sound better? That is questionable but it should make it more robust & theoretically be more durable & thus retain its value better.
    In audio electronics, if a typical home audio enthusiast wants durability, go get commercial grade components. They are built like tank in comparison to consumer grade components and not cost nearly as much as high end consumer electronics.

  4. #79
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    When it comes to music-making hardware, I now spend my cash on musical instruments instead of audio components but that is only because I am truly satisfied with the audio hardware I now have. My stuff isn't outrageously expensive (e.g. a 35 watt Primaluna integrated amp and Nola Boxer speakers), but the components suit my tastes and my room is carefully set up. I've got thousands of LPs, and a pretty good SACD player for my CD's and SACDs (I've yet to go purely digital). Thanks to my audiophile father (now long departed) I've been at this game for 50+ years. I know what I like and I don't give a hang for specs. Whether I am deluding myself or not, my ears are happy ears.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Not in my books especially when its given you so many years of service. Rationality vs sentimentality. Sentimentality has always kicked me in the ass so take your pick. No offence implied. In terms of bike comparisons, there are many that come here asking for upgrade advice all the time. However are their bikes worthwhile of such upgrades when its a 20 yr old bike of no major distinction??? Or the person that just got into cycling 2 yrs ago & now want to upgrade their entry level bike with carbon wheels, new groupset....sound familiar??? Again rationale vs sentiment.
    I'm not offended at all by what someone says about my ancient half working receiver. I don't get sentimental about such things either. And if my 15 year old flip phone that I only got when I learned it was cheaper to get that and ditch my land line didn't give you a clue I could line up a group of friend who'd tell you I'm rational to a fault.

    What I find bewildering though is your saying I shouldn't fix what I have now which is fair enough by itself. But at the same time you sound negative about upgrading (aka replacing). When something is broken fixing, replacing or doing without are the only options. That's rational and the only sentiment involved in not choosing the do without option is my sentiment towards listening to good music.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post

    What I find bewildering though is your saying I shouldn't fix what I have now which is fair enough by itself. But at the same time you sound negative about upgrading (aka replacing). When something is broken fixing, replacing or doing without are the only options. That's rational and the only sentiment involved in not choosing the do without option is my sentiment towards listening to good music.
    Jay, I'm not opposed to replacing an item at all if need be. I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Like I said previously, you have to weigh all your options. At the end of the road, you got the best use out of your receiver with many years of reliable service. If you want to treat yourself to the newest receiver with 8.1 surround sound, then why not?

    You gave the impression that you were determined to repair it & then there was some other advice given but all those options had you keeping your JVC receiver. Someone else mentioned buying 2nd hand & that is what I thought you were possibly heading towards but then you changed your mind back to repair again. As I said, I've never had a repair that had worked out for the long haul & it only prolonged the problem. Plus you have the down time of going without anything while your unit is being repaired which is usually a 2 to 3 weeks wait and then when you get the unit back there are still many unknowns & uncertainties. Given the age of the equipment, are you willing to live with those uncertainties given that the money spent on a repair job could have gone towards something newer that removes all those uncertainties be it 2nd hand or brand new?

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    You gave the impression that you were determined to repair it & then there was some other advice given but all those options had you keeping your JVC receiver. Someone else mentioned buying 2nd hand & that is what I thought you were possibly heading towards but then you changed your mind back to repair again. As I said, I've never had a repair that had worked out for the long haul & it only prolonged the problem. Plus you have the down time of going without anything while your unit is being repaired which is usually a 2 to 3 weeks wait and then when you get the unit back there are still many unknowns & uncertainties. Given the age of the equipment, are you willing to live with those uncertainties given that the money spent on a repair job could have gone towards something newer that removes all those uncertainties be it 2nd hand or brand new?
    Buying second hand would actually add to uncertainties and buying new would not totally remove them in my mind. I trust the repair place to tell me if something is worth fixing a lot more that I do some stranger selling a used stereo component. And new things fail to and in my price range warranties kinda suck.
    But yes I don't do things I'm not capable of living with any possible repercussions of.

  8. #83
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    Those number corroborate what I am hearing. Which is a shame, because I have a high end car stereo environment, yet listen to SR 90% of the time.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapei View Post
    When it comes to music-making hardware, I now spend my cash on musical instruments instead of audio components but that is only because I am truly satisfied with the audio hardware I now have. My stuff isn't outrageously expensive (e.g. a 35 watt Primaluna integrated amp and Nola Boxer speakers), but the components suit my tastes and my room is carefully set up. I've got thousands of LPs, and a pretty good SACD player for my CD's and SACDs (I've yet to go purely digital). Thanks to my audiophile father (now long departed) I've been at this game for 50+ years. I know what I like and I don't give a hang for specs. Whether I am deluding myself or not, my ears are happy ears.
    Your system sounds sublime. What turntable setup do you have? I've always lusted for an Oracle or vintage Revox but I digress.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    I would like to see what happens when they are double blind tested at matched level.
    I agree with folks that emphasize speaker selection and placement in the room, and room acoustics. But from my point of view, this is a first step, not final step, in putting together a nice sounding system, for me. You can't hear any differences without a high resolution system, and that starts with the speakers/room.

    I have the measurement tools and ears to experiment for myself and compare, which is a lot more fun. Yep, there is a lot of bullshirt, but you need to be careful in assuming it ALL BS. Because it's not, IMHO.

    Since for most it's simply a hobby, you really need to make sure you are enjoying the music, and not get wrapped around the axle over dumb things.
    I recommend people build your system for what pleases you, and not for what someone on the internet tells you is right or wrong.

    If you really want to have fun, try building your own stuff from scratch, and share the design with others, while also building and testing their designs. To me, this can turn into a nice long term hobby, where can really learn what you like and don't, on the cheap. I've been at that game for over 30 years now.

    I'm currently building a tube based headphone amp, based on an empty circuit board a friend sent me. This whole thing may cost me $30. - that's fun for me. Yep, I'll modify it and make it sound best for me.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan01 View Post
    Your system sounds sublime. What turntable setup do you have? I've always lusted for an Oracle or vintage Revox but I digress.
    An early SOTA Sapphire, regularly upgraded over the years but never given vacuum hold-down. I do, however, use a record clamp and the turntable feet have been replaced by cones. Alphason titanium arm. Lyra Delos cartridge. Moon phono amp. Interconnects custom-made by Crystal Cable for Todd Garfinkle, the founder/recording engineer/guru for audiophile label m.a. recordings...who happens to be one of my wife's college friends.
    Mapie is a conventional looking former Hollywood bon viveur, now leading a quiet life in a house made of wood by an isolated beach. He has cultivated a taste for culture, and is a celebrated raconteur amongst his local associates, who are artists, actors, and other leftfield/eccentric types. I imagine he has a telescope, and an unusual sculpture outside his front door. He is also a beach comber. The Rydster.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z'mer View Post
    I agree with folks that emphasize speaker selection and placement in the room, and room acoustics. But from my point of view, this is a first step, not final step, in putting together a nice sounding system, for me. You can't hear any differences without a high resolution system, and that starts with the speakers/room.
    I agree. I would add that it's the most important step.

    I have the measurement tools and ears to experiment for myself and compare, which is a lot more fun. Yep, there is a lot of bullshirt, but you need to be careful in assuming it ALL BS. Because it's not, IMHO.
    I used to be a believer of those bs and spent quite a bit of money and time on buying and making (I like DIY stuff) them. That is until I sat through a double blind test of the claimed improvement from product X vs stock part Y. It was an eyeopener (to see the truth). When we are stimulated with visual aspect (price tag, fancy looking chassis...etc.), we tend to think we are hearing something that's not there. Look up McGurk Effect.

    There are a lot of marketing hypes in audio electronics, especially the components leading up to speaker terminals. If DBT isn't enough, there are measurements to confirm the results of DBT. It's a good way to avoid pitfalls in this jungle of audio electronics market.

    Since for most it's simply a hobby, you really need to make sure you are enjoying the music, and not get wrapped around the axle over dumb things.
    I recommend people build your system for what pleases you, and not for what someone on the internet tells you is right or wrong.

    If you really want to have fun, try building your own stuff from scratch, and share the design with others, while also building and testing their designs. To me, this can turn into a nice long term hobby, where can really learn what you like and don't, on the cheap. I've been at that game for over 30 years now.

    I'm currently building a tube based headphone amp, based on an empty circuit board a friend sent me. This whole thing may cost me $30. - that's fun for me. Yep, I'll modify it and make it sound best for me.
    I'm into hi-fi audio replaying system which stands for high fidelity. It allows me to hear what the musician intended by replaying the source at high degree of faithfulness. There are people who want to tweak the sound to their own taste but that's not hi-fi.

  13. #88
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    Maybe I'll get these speakers while I'm at it: https://blinkhighend.com/shop/speakers/raidho-d-5-1/

    Definitely the piano black not walnut though because I'm on a budget.

    Seriously though, I didn't even know what the think when I saw those just googling for an audio shop in Boston but figured some people following the thread might get a kick out of seeing it.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    Maybe I'll get these speakers while I'm at it: https://blinkhighend.com/shop/speakers/raidho-d-5-1/

    Definitely the piano black not walnut though because I'm on a budget.

    Seriously though, I didn't even know what the think when I saw those just googling for an audio shop in Boston but figured some people following the thread might get a kick out of seeing it.
    such would be used in conjunction with a "tuned" listening environment.

    My listening room is "L" shaped which, from an optimized sound field POV presents issues, the audiophile answer would be to reconfigure the room or get a new house.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mapei View Post
    An early SOTA Sapphire, regularly upgraded over the years but never given vacuum hold-down. I do, however, use a record clamp and the turntable feet have been replaced by cones. Alphason titanium arm. Lyra Delos cartridge. Moon phono amp. Interconnects custom-made by Crystal Cable for Todd Garfinkle, the founder/recording engineer/guru for audiophile label m.a. recordings...who happens to be one of my wife's college friends.
    Nice! You surprised me...I had you pegged as either a Linn Sondek or Rega patron but in retrospect, I can see the hierarchy of your choices. Again, sublime & kudos.

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Akirasho View Post
    such would be used in conjunction with a "tuned" listening environment.

    My listening room is "L" shaped which, from an optimized sound field POV presents issues, the audiophile answer would be to reconfigure the room or get a new house.
    Real answer would come from pro level acoustician. I've been told by one that symmetrical room is more challenging to treat than unevenly shaped room. You may be in a better room than you think.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by rideit View Post
    Those number corroborate what I am hearing. Which is a shame, because I have a high end car stereo environment, yet listen to SR 90% of the time.
    What I hear from some of the high quality music channels make me think there's more going on than just direct streaming at low bit rates. Some of the music sounds epic in my car, better than CD quality.

    How is that possible? Packet buffers in the receiver? Error correction? High quality D-A conversion in the receiver? I dunno.

    But I know what different bit rates sound like from when I rip MP3s from vinyl and CDs. What I hear from a few good music channels on siriusxm on my high end car stereo is definitely better any 40-60 k stream I've ever heard. That said, most of it sounds like crap.

  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    Real answer would come from pro level acoustician. I've been told by one that symmetrical room is more challenging to treat than unevenly shaped room. You may be in a better room than you think.
    No, it's a crappy room. Easier to move my chair or peel paint at high dB. Huh?

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