Tesla Clobbering its BMW/Audi/'Benz/Lexus Competition - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    I saw a movie called "The Dilemma" starring Vince Vaughan. The protagonists were designing a loud sound-effect for electric cars to make them sound like a real muscle car.
    It was a pretty interesting idea and I wonder if it's an actual thing?

  2. #27
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    Good for Tesla.

    But, the chart is not an apples to apples comparison really. Tesla gets the advantage of "but we just started making them recently". If I want to buy a Merc C class, I could buy new, or used (back many many years) But if I want a Model3, only one real option today. Give it time and then we can do a better comparison.

    And yes, seeing more of them around my town. Good for Tesla. But it's not like they have won. Just getting started. Bleeding edge company bleeds. Companies joining in the second and third generations of the technology can skip that, rely on established name brands, established infrastructure (dealership's mechanics etc) and catch up quick.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    They are everywhere here.

    My prediction - when the big automakers roll out their Ecars in over the next couple years, the pressure will cause Tesla will either go belly up or be bought by large Tech company or automaker when they are on the brink of bankruptcy.

    Personally I don't see the draw - all considered the footprint on the environment isn't proven to be better than a Dino fueled vehicle, life limited on the battery cycles, and insufficient charging infrastructure which is not substantially less expensive to use than gas from what I have read.

    When governments figure out and implement a way to charge Ecars for road use taxes (like gasoline and diesel per gallon taxes) they are going to be less attractive.
    I pay an extra BEV fee to the Commonwealth of Virginia when I register my car.

    I agree with you that the chart in the OP, while interesting, probably doesn’t present an accurate picture of the competition between Tesla and BMW, Mercedes, etc. People buying the Model 3 aren’t necessarily choosing between that at the BMW 3 or Mercedes C. Some are choosing between that and other BEV’s, hybrid cars, etc. When I bought m Model S, I wanted an electric car that I could get to the next town and back in and I could fit a bike in. At the time that was the only choice.

    Regarding charging infrastructure, that was a point I alluded to in my earlier post. Tesla has a huge edge with this. With a robust BEV, local charging infrastructure doesn’t matter; all you need is a charger in your driveway. The Tesla Supercharger network, which was about in about 7 or 8 places along I5 and I95 when I first got mine are now all over the place. We did a family trip to SC a couple of years ago and I even skipped one on the way back home. Battery degradation I think is overblown. My battery lost about 10% of range over the first 4-5 years and has been holding steady since. It maxed out at 245 miles before this last trip. Supercharging at Tesla is free for me but I’ll leave the environmental and economics of this for another thread.

    https://www.tesla.com/supercharger

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Personally I don't see the draw - all considered the footprint on the environment isn't proven to be better than a Dino fueled vehicle, life limited on the battery cycles, and insufficient charging infrastructure which is not substantially less expensive to use than gas from what I have read.
    With respect, a lot of that is inaccurate.

    Firstly, the studies I've seen indicate that electric vehicles are better environmentally (air pollution, CO2 emissions) than gasoline vehicles even if you happen to get your electricity from a coal-fired power plant. Which makes a certain amount of sense, when you remember that coal plants are still twice as efficient as internal-combustion engines (about 35 percent vs 15-20 percent).

    Add to this that coal is only 27 percent of the grid nowadays (and falling), and that the rest of the grid is a lot better than coal on emissions – i.e. wind, solar, nuclear, nat gas, hydro – and it's sort of absurd to say that EVs don't beat gasoline on the environment. And the grid continues to get cleaner going forward.

    On limited cycle life on the batteries... lithium-ion batteries nowadays are quite robust and very-long-lasting, so long as you don't abuse them. Tesla's current battery warranty on the Model 3 is 8 years and either 100K or 125K miles, depending on model.

    From the owner's stories I've seen, even if you abuse the battery horribly with daily very deep discharges, routine daily overcharging to 100%, and charging almost exclusively through high-speed Superchargers, they still do fine out to about 150K miles (which makes sense in conjunction with where Tesla sets their warranty). And, if you treat your battery at all well, the battery pack should last multiples of that figure. Meanwhile... you do know that gasoline engines wear out over time too, yes?

    On insufficient battery charging infrastructure... Tesla currently has 13,000 Superchargers in the US, in 1,500 stations, and those numbers are only going to increase going forward. Nor do they include all the Level 2 charging available out there... I see such stations at local schools and stores (Whole Foods, etc) most everywhere nowadays, but of course, I am in California. Still, more and more Level 2 charging points are popping up most everywhere.

    But, you're missing out on what is the charging point EV users use about 90% of the time... the one in your own garage. With a 240V outlet, you can charge your EV completely overnight. It's like having 'a gas station in your garage'. Most EV owners only visit charging stations rarely and on long road trips.

    Finally... you say that electricity is just as expensive as gasoline? Really? Well okay, let's do the numbers.

    A Model 3 Long Range has a 75 kilowatt-hour battery pack, which provides 310 miles of range. The current US residential electricity price average is 13.3 cents per KWh. So, to charge a Model 3 from 0% to 310 miles of range costs about $10 if you do it at home.

    Meanwhile, the average US new car/light-truck/SUV MPG is about 25 miles to the gallon. That's 12.4 gallons to go the same 310 miles. Average US gasoline prices are currently $2.64/gallon, so total cost for the distance is $32.74.

    So actually, electricity is about one-third the cost of gasoline, on average.

    Now, I'm sure there are a few parts of the country where gasoline is very cheap and simultaneously electricity is very expensive, and in those areas maybe it's closer, but still, the overall gist of it is pretty clear. The average driver saves almost $1,000/year on 'fueling costs' with an EV vs a gasoline vehicle. Then add in that EVs have lower maintenance costs due to being much simpler (about 20 moving parts vs hundreds on an ICE vehicle).


    My prediction - when the big automakers roll out their Ecars in over the next couple years, the pressure will cause Tesla will either go belly up or be bought by large Tech company or automaker when they are on the brink of bankruptcy.
    The bigs have already started that rollout – the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf, for example – and the numbers show that they haven't made much of a dent in Tesla. In fact, IIRC the Model 3 alone was something like two-thirds of all US EV sales for the latest period.

    Tesla's market share in EVs will drop as everyone jumps in, sure, but the market has an incredible amount of room to expand. EV sales are currently only about 2 percent of the US market, and they will be taking more and more share from ICE vehicles going forward.

    So really, Tesla's biggest enemy isn't really other car makers, who are a bit behind Tesla on technology and WAY behind in terms of charging infrastructure deployed. Tesla's biggest enemy is actually Tesla. If they screw up their brand by putting out cars with a lot of annoying issues and warranty costs, and/or Elon Musk keeps on making crazy tweets and picking unnecessary fights with the SEC, they could be in for a lot of self-inflicted wounds that could slow their growth.


    When governments figure out and implement a way to charge Ecars for road use taxes (like gasoline and diesel per gallon taxes) they are going to be less attractive.
    I kinda doubt it, because said road-use taxes won't completely wipe out the fueling/maintenance cost advantages of EVs, only reduce them somewhat. And some states have already figured out how to 'charge' for the fact that EVs don't pay gasoline taxes, in the form of adding an extra fee to EV vehicle registrations (which is only fair, IMHO).

    In the end, I think the future for EVs looks pretty bright. Battery costs keep on dropping, and once EVs achieve purchase-cost-parity with gasoline cars (currently this is projected for the 2025-2030 timeframe), the lower fueling/maintenance costs of EVs will mean that there isn't much sense for the average person or family to own an ICE vehicle anymore.

    The major automakers now see this coming, which is why most of them are pouring billions into EV development... even Toyota, which was trying to hold out for hybrids in the short-term and fuel-cell vehicles in the long.


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  5. #30
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    PS - Current Tesla supercharger station infrastructure (the red marks):
    (though again, most of the time you'll be charging in your own garage)



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  6. #31
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    I'm just waiting for Tesla to dip down to the $180 range again before I buy.
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  7. #32
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    Good bang for the buck.
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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    Calling a Model 3 a Luxury car is a joke.
    and same with a 3 series or C class with similar appointments and materials. They are in approximately the same class, though the Tesla goes a bit faster for the money. Performance comparisons show the Model3 Performance has better road feel and better lap times than the comparably priced M2 or M3.

    But by old luxury standard the baby benz (C class) and wee BMW (3 series/ 4 series) are not exactly 'luxury' have to look to the E class, 5 series for actual luxury.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:49 PM.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    ....have to look to the E class, 5 series for actual luxury.
    E-Class = Economy and the 5-Series was always a middle management subsidised leasing perk.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    and same with a 3 series or C class with similar appointments and materials. They are in approximately the same class, though the Tesla goes a bit faster for the money. Performance comparisons show the Model3 Performance has better road feel and better lap times than the comparably priced M2 or M3.

    But by old luxury standard the baby benz (C class) and wee BMW (3 series/ 4 series) are not exactly 'luxury' have to look to the E class, 5 series for actual luxury.
    But...the Tesla can do probably 5X-7X the fuel economy equivalent. Which is the kicker....and it can do it while still felling sporty.
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  11. #36
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    For every Tesla Model 3, I see, I see 20 Toyota Prius'...….(Both are about equal on Luxury)
    I see more S-Class' than Model S, by a factor of 3.
    For some strange reason, Model S and Benz E-Class are about equal.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    For every Tesla Model 3, I see, I see 20 Toyota Prius'...….(Both are about equal on Luxury)
    I see more S-Class' than Model S, by a factor of 3.
    For some strange reason, Model S and Benz E-Class are about equal.
    Not surprising. The Prius, as a brand, is beyond old enough to vote at this point....and hasn't changed much in styling. Further it is Toyota--and those are on lots everywhere.

    The Teslas are new...and not as cheap or as available. Tesla has had problems meeting demand and dates.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    For every Tesla Model 3, I see, I see 20 Toyota Prius'...….(Both are about equal on Luxury)l.
    you have never been within 50 feet of either car then . WOW

    Tesla is a minimalist style but its luxury, materials, design, features is on par or better with Mercedes. And I say that as a top spec Mercedes E class owner.

    Prius is on par with any old $14k econobox, looks and handle like crap. Teslas are true luxury sports sedans on all measures.

    Americans should be very proud of this American brand, Tesla. Their cars are an amazing achievement. And if they deliver true self driving they will be the most impressive and innovative automotive company in the last 90 years. (And I am not an American!)
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eretz View Post
    E-Class = Economy and the 5-Series was always a middle management subsidised leasing perk.
    It surely did not feel very economical when I paid $82k for my custom order E550 lol. Though in the end what impresses me most is the stereo ha! I dunno hand stitched leather dash is nice but frivolous. Too many buttons my wife says, she is a Tesla devotee.

    I guess it is economical in that I saved a lot by not getting the Rolls instead. Or economical in getting the same 450hp engine as the S550 for maybe 40k less.
    Last edited by BCSaltchucker; 4 Weeks Ago at 07:43 PM.
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    dbl post
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  16. #41
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    How do you define Luxury??...What quality leather are the seats and dash? Everything that I've read says that the fit and finish of the inside and outside is fair to poor. Are the leather seats heated AND cooled?????
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    Doesn't Tesla lead by leaps and bounds over others with reliability issues? This Feb 2019 article says that CR moved it to their not recommended list.

    https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/cars-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/[/URL]

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    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    It surely did not feel very economical when I paid $82k for my custom order E550 lol. Though in the end what impresses me most is the stereo ha! I dunno hand stitched leather dash is nice but frivolous. Too many buttons my wife says, she is a Tesla devotee.

    I guess it is economical in that I saved a lot by not getting the Rolls instead. Or economical in getting the same 450hp engine as the S550 for maybe 40k less.
    I made a tongue in cheek remark. The E-Series meant electronic injection and the series is far from standard.

    I had a 300D in europe and a station wagon C Series diesel too. Incredible handling and comfort. I didn't enjoy the mono wiper blade on the 300 though and the $78 USD [conversion FRF] fill-ups were palatable in comparison to the gasoline guzzler edition. That E550 must be one heck of a ride and worth every dime.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    Doesn't Tesla lead by leaps and bounds over others with reliability issues? This Feb 2019 article says that CR moved it to their not recommended list.

    https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/cars-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/[/URL]
    More fuel for the fire:

    https://www.lmtonline.com/technology...d-14339377.php

    A German car-rental company was so fed up with quality and service issues on its bulk Tesla order that it opted to cancel the purchase entirely.
    Seems like a large fleet operator doesn't see any profit renting a Tesla given their unremarkable quality and reliability.

    Or this all could be Fake News from the evil petroleum syndicate

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    They are everywhere here.

    My prediction - when the big automakers roll out their Ecars in over the next couple years, the pressure will cause Tesla will either go belly up or be bought by large Tech company or automaker when they are on the brink of bankruptcy.

    Personally I don't see the draw - all considered the footprint on the environment isn't proven to be better than a Dino fueled vehicle, life limited on the battery cycles, and insufficient charging infrastructure which is not substantially less expensive to use than gas from what I have read.

    When governments figure out and implement a way to charge Ecars for road use taxes (like gasoline and diesel per gallon taxes) they are going to be less attractive.
    From an environmental perspective, you are not going to see a major change in a short period of time. Change has to start somewhere, and it will be incremental. Those who deny climate change and fight against the idea of EV's (yes they exist, and coincidentally also complain about cyclists using the roads and not paying their fair share while completely ignoring the fact that most cyclists also own cars), love to use the excuse they don't pay their fair share of taxes, bring up the ecological costs of manufacturing (and lets face it, battery manufacture is incredibly toxic).

    But if we all just say oh well, we are not seeing changes fast enough, then nothing will change. EV cars are a start, changing our power generation is sorta underway, although politics pushing fossil fuels is getting in the way, and as we move forward, battery tech will eventually become cleaner to manufacture.

    Progress inches along, it is not immediate. And Tesla is well on its way. I will admit, I am not a fan of the Model 3, or the interior of it.. I need a damn proper dashboard.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ogre View Post
    Doesn't Tesla lead by leaps and bounds over others with reliability issues? This Feb 2019 article says that CR moved it to their not recommended list.

    https://www.consumerreports.org/car-reliability-owner-satisfaction/cars-lose-cr-recommendation-over-reliability-issues/[/URL]
    Yes, Teslas have been moved on and off the CR Recommended list for reliability issues a few times. I think the big Model 3 ramp-up has been a strain for them... they've had manufacturing processes in place that work for making 'X' volume of cars, but all of a sudden they now have to make multiples of 'x', and that's hard.

    That said, the problems seem to be more ones of fit and finish, and not usually major ones involving the powertrain... and I'd expect that they'll resolve them over time, as they get used to producing a higher volume of vehicles.

    From a 2019 USA Today article:

    Consumer Reports also said it can no longer recommend the Tesla Model 3 electric sedan after noticing substantive manufacturing defects, including "loose body trim" and "glass defects," such as windows cracking too easily.

    Tesla CEO Elon Musk has argued that the company is repeatedly improving the Model 3 through manufacturing changes and software upgrades. But the company's aggressive move to accelerate the pace of production in 2018 may have caused some issues, [senior director of auto testing for Consumer Reports] [Jake] Fisher said.


    Yet "people who have told us they have problems with the car have also told us they’re very satisfied with the car," Fisher said.

    That reflects the popularity of the Tesla brand and its position as a status symbol for many buyers, he said.

    "You may not be buying a Tesla Model 3 because you want the most reliable car," Fisher said.

    As a brand, Tesla ranked 19th [of 33], just behind Buick and just ahead of Ford.

    Tesla said in a statement that its cars are "the safest and best performing vehicles available today."

    "We’re setting an extremely high bar for Model 3. We have already made significant improvements to correct any issues that Model 3 customers may have experienced that are referenced in this report, and our return policy allows any customer who is unhappy with their car to return it for a full refund," the company said.

    In addition to the Model 3, several other models lost their Consumer Reports recommendation, including the Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Acura RDX, BMW 5-Series and Volkswagen Tiguan.


    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...ks/2936504002/

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    Last edited by SystemShock; 4 Weeks Ago at 12:05 PM.
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  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    How do you define Luxury??...What quality leather are the seats and dash? Everything that I've read says that the fit and finish of the inside and outside is fair to poor. Are the leather seats heated AND cooled?????
    You can define it any way you like, but Teslas do offer some very luxurious features that even luxury makes often don't match, including (but not limited to):

    1) Silence from the power train. You have to go to mega-bux luxury cars like Rolls Royce to get something that silent.
    2) Ability to air condition or heat the car remotely so it will be ready to go when you get in (no need to remote start or leave the car "running")
    3) Large display for maps, etc. (other makes typically charge big $$$ to upgrade to screens that are much smaller)
    4) High performance, especially for the "stoplight racing" and freeway entrances most normal drivers experience.
    5) No need to stop for fuel. The car is "full" every time you leave your driveway if you charge at home.

    Agreed that fit and finish is not up to par with Merc (or even Toyota), but at the end of the day, most people don't care THAT much if their bumper alignment is .5mm off. A lot of the quality issues have also been worked out now that they are over the initial hump of getting production ramped up.

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    Yes, it is quiet.
    When you are spending $50,000 on a car, why should you care how much gas it uses. So why should you care if you start it 3 minutes before you drive away????
    I prefer a large set gauges, and a large navigation display.
    "Stoplight racing"???....I'm not 22 anymore.
    The idea of 75 minute "refueling" turns me off....and that's if you can find a Supercharger...…..
    More like 1 to 2 mm panel gaps.
    Tesla's are good for what they are, but don't call the Model 3 a luxury car.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    "Me concerned about fit and finish issues on my cars?" Not really

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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY View Post
    Yes, it is quiet.
    When you are spending $50,000 on a car, why should you care how much gas it uses. So why should you care if you start it 3 minutes before you drive away????

    I prefer a large set gauges, and a large navigation display.
    "Stoplight racing"???....I'm not 22 anymore.
    The idea of 75 minute "refueling" turns me off....and that's if you can find a Supercharger...…..
    More like 1 to 2 mm panel gaps.
    Tesla's are good for what they are, but don't call the Model 3 a luxury car.
    Well, your preferences are your preferences, but a couple of things...

    – If you want a 'large nav display', doesn't the Model 3's 15-inch screen qualify? It's (much) bigger than most anything else out there.

    – "If you can find a Supercharger." Well, there's currently 1,500 supercharger stations in the US alone, with 13,000+ supercharger stalls in 'em. And that number is only going to increase going forward.

    – "75 minute refueling." Shouldn't take that long unless you're charging to 100% ('cuz lithium-ion batteries 'trickle charge' as you get close to full capacity). But if you supercharge to 80% (most ppl do), it should take more like 40 minutes. And new V3 superchargers are starting to be deployed, which will cut that to 20 minutes.

    Just sayin'.

    Far as 'the Model 3 ain't luxury' thing goes, I'd agree on two things... 1) Tesla should definitely improve their fit and finish (panel gaps, etc), and I think they will, given time, and 2) the interior overall isn't as nice as most of the German competition, I'll give you that (though it is actually nicer in some ways...panoramic roof, huge screen). Another thing Tesla could and should work on.

    But the advantages of a Tesla... goodness. Even the mid-level version of the Model 3 does 0 to 60 in 4.4 seconds, 'fueling' costs at home are typically one-third that of a gasoline car (and it does add up over the years), you 'fuel' in your very own garage most of the time, the car can be continuously improved and new features added via over-the-air software updates, you have lower maintenance costs due to the lower complexity of EVs vs gasoline cars, etc. etc.

    So, even if it ain't 'traditional luxury' to some folks' tastes, there's a lot to like there. And the sales figures do seem to back that.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but the Model 3 is kinda the EV "that the world's been waiting for" (cliche noted, but true)... given it's price/range/features/abilities, it's an important 'inflection-point' car, historically-speaking, whether or not one has a personal interest in buying one.

    I may buy one myself, but even if I don't, I am definitely noticing what it's doing to the auto industry and consumer expectations as a whole, aka 'disrupting' them.
    .
    Monkhouse: I want to go like my Dad did – peacefully, in his sleep, not screaming in terror like his passengers.

    System: Fake news?? Trump's a Fake President, for God's sake.

    Plat: I'd rather fellate a syphilitic goat than own a Cervelo.

    Homer: I believe that children are our future. Unless we stop them now.

    Seam: Saw Bjork poop onstage back in the day. It blew my teenage mind


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