are we morally bankrupt?
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  1. #1
    chica cyclista
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    are we morally bankrupt?

    Note to forum administrator: this is an ethics question, and I have no intention of it becoming political, religious or overly contentious. It very well may do. Move or delete if you must, no big.

    Note to everyone else: I have no interest in or patience for either politics or religion, so kindly do not use this thread as an excuse to get on your political or religious soapbox. This is an ethics question, so please just let me stick to my own unadulterated soapbox, thanks! ;)

    So, riddle me this Batman: What IS it with these individuals who refuse to accept personal responsibility and/or are firmly convinced the world revolves around them?

    I realise this may be biased perception on my behalf, and I have no statistical sample to back me up... but I am sorely fed up with all the blamers in today's society.

    The proliferation of the "I hate everyone" and "why are people so rude these days", etc., etc., etc., threads, plus all the "irresponsible hit-and-run drivers" threads and others of that ilk, not to mention reading Bill Cosby's recent rant on a similar theme have all caused me to wonder what effect sociological factors have had on the current ethical makeup of society. (note to those who didn't pass fifth grade English: I said ethical, not ethnic, so don't even go there). I also admit my experience outside the U.S. is limited, so I'd be interested to hear the other nationalities on the board chime in with their views.

    Okay, we all know that opinions are like assh0les: everyone has one, and we're all convinced ours doesn't stink. So here's my pet theory in all its dubious glory:

    I've encountered a darned lot of chronological adults who act frighteningly like spoiled, overindulged children. I can only assume this is because (gasp!) they WERE spoiled, overindulged children who were never forced to accept responsibility for their actions. Rather than having to deal with consequences, someone's always been there to mediate for them, hold their hand and/or clean up their messes.

    Is it only that I'm getting to the age where I'm more sensitive to this? Is nostalgia for the past clouding my perception (and that of my elders)? Or is the moral fabric of society becoming increasingly threadbare. Not through faith or lack thereof, not through political leanings, social or educational status, environment or career path, but simply because in the main we are a load of ethically bankrupt, rude, lazy spoiled brats who never "got" the concept of the Golden Rule and are willing, nay, even eager to blame everyone else for our problems?

    Now, I realise this is a sensitive topic. I'm not letting myself off the hook either. Goodness knows I've perpetrated enough arrogant, rude, lazy, self-entitled acts of my own.

    Go ahead and flame away, I've got my asbestos skivvies on. I'm really curious about everyone else's thoughts, opinions or theories on this, though. I'd be intrigued to hear from someone who had a better social sciences education than I and/or who took an ethics course in college (I didn't go to college).

    Or should I just quit reading the paper and shoot my television? (ignoring the fact that I haven't turned it on in nearly a year...)
    Grandpa LFR: "Kid, don't wrestle with pigs; you'll just get covered in crap, and the pig enjoys it."

    /Grandpa LFR

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    interesting rant

    I'm not sure I see an ethics question in all this, but I do get your point, especially as a 40-year-old college teacher who is really starting to feel the generation gap. Over the years,
    I've observed some trends that have been backed up by older teachers than me:
    In general, students (I've taught in a variety of settings, including small liberal arts colleges, and flagship state universities) have abysmal work ethics and believe they're entitled to As without doing squat. They don't understand that plagiarism is wrong.
    They're victims of post-modernism: in other words, they don't believe that there may be universal standards of excellence, and that "hey, I gotta be me" is good enough. Finally, they seem to mature much later. (Personally, I don't believe grown men should be riding around on skate boards. I had one too--when I was twelve. What's next, yo yos? Pogo sticks?) That being said, I do have occasional students who are committed and honest and mature. But not many. I really wonder how--and when--they'll grow up.

  3. #3

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    I think there are a lot more "ethically-challenged" people out there...

    ...but I also think part of the problem is perception: these types stand out more than the people who don't cut corners, break the rules or blame everyone else. It's nothing new, though. The Ken Lays of the world differ from people I've encountered in the past only in the level of egregiousness of their greed. I can't offer any simple explanation, because this kind of behaviour is totally alien to the way my parents raised me; I was taught to do things just because they were "the right thing to do", and if that made me different from everyone around me, then that was a reflection on the others, not me. (When my father was at West Point, he was the captain of the Honor Committee, the peer-review group that dealt with violations of the Cadet Code; he took it very seriously, which was probably where his nickname of "Old Iron Ass" came from. My formative years were often rather novel...)

    Ain't no sense of "entitlement" here....

  4. #4
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    Only a little bit in the red.

    "So, riddle me this Batman: What IS it with these individuals who refuse to accept personal responsibility and/or are firmly convinced the world revolves around them?"

    You sound like you think that being self centered is a "bad" thing. After all, remember...how do you really know that anybody else exists besides yourself. Why take chances, I always say.
    If you weren't self centered, you'd probably be baking cookies for others, instead of reading a cycling forum.

    The reason that most people refuse to accept personal responsibility for their actions is because it is easier that way. It's easier to blame your parents because they were too easy (harsh?) on you. It's easier to be just like (different from ?) all the people around you.

    What it boils down to is that people want to get through life as easily as possible. If they can do it without breaking a sweat, that's great. If it turns out that things don't go as planned, and if they cry about it, and that gets results, that's even better.
    It's just human nature......That's all.
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  5. #5

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    I think it mostly has to do with being spoiled and America is one of the most materialisticly spoiled and priviledged countries. I think most of the rest of the world sees America in a more realistic light, good and bad, but without so much of the hypocrisy that seems to cloud most Americans perceptions. The hypocritical way society deals with the actions of it's moral misfits bothers me more than the misfits.

  6. #6
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    I think it is a cultural American issue. My wife is from europe, one of those quasi-socialist northern european countries where they have a word I can't remember that describes a concept that "you are no better than anyone else." In general, conspicuous consumption is frowned upon. The middle class seems to actually be middle class, unlike in the US where there is a much wider range. Keep in mind that population is much more homogenous than in the US. Each year, the government publishes on the internet the earnings and ASSETS of each person, so anyone can look them up.

    Your comparison to children is interesting. I have always believed that adults are just "big kids." The problem is, kids these days aren't even what they once were. When I was a kid, there was no such thing as oppositional defiant disorder, or ADD, ADHD, or the newest epidemic, Asperger's Syndrome (which is growing exponentially among kids in Silicone Valley and other areas). All of these disorders have key features where kids have issues with consequences for their behaviors.

    In the past, people who didn't respond well to consequences, or who never internalized authority, were labeled as and treated as criminals. Today we like to diagnose them, which sends a subtle message that they are somehow "let off the hook." There are all sorts of movements afoot to destigmatize these "authority disorders," and move them into the mental health realm. I supervise an incompetent individual at work, where the CEO pretty much told me I need to give him a free pass on everything because he has undiagnosed adult attention deficit disorder... so I've pretty much been doing his work for him for years.

    I think you will find the diagnostic trends in children's mental health to be a uniquely American phenomenon.

    Another issue that I believe contributes to all this is how much the remote control, having 1000 cable channels, surfing the internet (where it is infinite), and playing video games alters are perception of reality. If we don't like something, we simply change the channel, surf to a different site, start the game over or play a new one. All of the above involves interacting with machines, rather than people, and machines behave in a much more predictable manner than do humans. We end up with a subtle message that we don't always have to accept reality as it comes to us.

  7. #7
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    Livin' life easy

    I've often surmised that irresponsible acts that you talk about are either committed in anger or in ignorance.

    I think it is the ignorant acts that you are wondering about, and I'll theorize that this ignorance stems from the lack of life experience which comes as a result of living a comfy, sheltered life as many of us do. Where the path before us has been paved and swept clean by our parents and close relations (I'm tempted to bring in GWBush as an example, but as you said, no politics).

    There is something strangely positive about experiencing the loss of a job; breakup of a marriage; personal and professional betrayals; deaths; bankruptcy. You either toss in the towel, or you find a way to make do and get back on your feet and move on. And it is times like these, the lessons that one learns from them which can bring one a perspective on life that is a little more grounded in reality, where the good and the bad are all part of the life experience.

    When you go through an experience, you know it's for real. Responsibility stems from experience, and thus I close with this final thought....... why are so few family members of the people who sent us to war fighting in that war? (OK, no politics.... unless of course one of the answers to your question could be that we reflect the values and principles of our leaders.....but then it becomes a political discussion.....)

  8. #8

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    Yeah...I think people abdicating personal responsibility is a real problem. Not sure if it's any worse than it always has been, but it is definately at the root of many conflicts and bad behaviors. Was there a real-world reason for this rather longish rant? I think there are differences between maturity and accepting responsibility for your actions though. They aren't mutually exclusive. Maybe maturity is the larger grouping that includes responsibility?
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  9. #9

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    maybe insolvent

    I think we may have gone to far in the direction of "anything goes," philosphy, essentially teaching that everyone is entitled to their own ethics and morals. To the extreme, this becomes ethical and moral codes of 1 individual, which means everyone does whatever they want. Consistency is not valued. Commonality is not valued. Relying upon religion and religious texts is largely scourned. The frequent pithy argument of the last 30 year is "you can't legislate morality."

    Who teaches morality any more? Sure, there's lots of instruction about "tolerance" and "diversity" in schools, but that's about it. We've bent over backwards to become tolerant of every thing and every one, except a few pet politically correct peeves of the moment. Seems that some are more tolerant of religious zealots committing mass murder than someone using the "N" word (not that anyone should).

    Heck, on this very site, lots of people chimed in following 9/11 that the killings were partially America's fault, because we had done too little to "understand" the Islamic people and their complaints with the West. I got derided for calling people on this, arguing that murder is wrong, period, and to hell with trying to understand. I wonder if the same people tried to "understand" what Timothy McVeigh did. No. He was universally condemned, being a white American man. The entire "tolerance" response to the 9/11 episode disgusted me. Strong evidence of how nutty things have gotten.

    Our morals have gotten all out of whack. Any sort of moral code is nearly villified (can't even display a simple 10 rules). Mention "God" as having anything to do with right and wrong and many treat you like you still think the sun goes around the flat earth. Further, many people will outright deny that there *is* any right and wrong, except for personal or political expediency of the moment.

    I don't know the answer, but until morality and ethics are taught, things will get worse. The heavy hand of the law can't cite every person who blows through stop signs endangering others; the law any more is nothing more than a lottery of the losers, scofflaws knowing the odds are against being caught; there is not right or wrong -- there is only getting away with it or being unlucky and getting caught. Virtue is not its own reward; rather the virtuous are the chumps who behave at their own foolish expense. "Law-abiding" might as well be read "chump," like so many cyclists I see blow through stop signs -- the law not applying to them, of course. Does anyone stop because "it's the right thing to do"?

    I join in your rant. People suck. Until I perfect my "you're out of the gene pool" ray gun, I'm at a loss about it.

  10. #10

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    Is there a true right and wrong though? I mean murder is OK during wartime. Not when your neighbor pisses you off though. Do it in a moment of passion and you get less time in jail than if you meditated on it. Old testament morality is not far off from the right-wing Muslims. Seems that morality is dependent on the context.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  11. #11
    Opus was just napping
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    I fear my own bancrupcy started when I was watching the repeat of the Wimbledon womens finals and looking down Sharapova's shirt when she leaned forward to return serve. I know its wrong I know she is seventeen I also know that I didn't care who won. There was a part of me that wanted Serena and Sharapova drop the racquets and cue up some acid jazz and have a big time on centre court.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  12. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    I fear my own bancrupcy started when I was watching the repeat of the Wimbledon womens finals and looking down Sharapova's shirt when she leaned forward to return serve. I know its wrong I know she is seventeen I also know that I didn't care who won. There was a part of me that wanted Serena and Sharapova drop the racquets and cue up some acid jazz and have a big time on centre court.
    here's something for you then... ;)
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    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  13. #13

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    somewhat

    Quote Originally Posted by Bocephus Jones
    Is there a true right and wrong though? I mean murder is OK during wartime. Not when your neighbor pisses you off though. Do it in a moment of passion and you get less time in jail than if you meditated on it. Old testament morality is not far off from the right-wing Muslims. Seems that morality is dependent on the context.
    Actions or results are not always the same. "Killing," which could include premeditated murder, passion murder, careless homicide, or self-defense (among others) are different. Some are justified, some are not. Some have greater penalties. That's not the same as being amoral or overly relativistic. We recognize in advance that different situation are to be treated differently. Killing your spouse and throwing her body in the ocean is different that a soldier killing in battle or not seeing a stop sign and blowing through an intersection, killing someone.

    Islamic zealots seem to justify killing anyone they choose and then back it up with their religious interpretations, which are denounced by the mainstream religious leaders. That's no different than a McVeigh, and nothing like Old Testament morality.

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by DougSloan
    Actions or results are not always the same. "Killing," which could include premeditated murder, passion murder, careless homicide, or self-defense (among others) are different. Some are justified, some are not. Some have greater penalties. That's not the same as being amoral or overly relativistic. We recognize in advance that different situation are to be treated differently. Killing your spouse and throwing her body in the ocean is different that a soldier killing in battle or not seeing a stop sign and blowing through an intersection, killing someone.

    Islamic zealots seem to justify killing anyone they choose and then back it up with their religious interpretations, which are denounced by the mainstream religious leaders. That's no different than a McVeigh, and nothing like Old Testament morality.
    No doubt there were people here in the US that thought McVeigh was a hero and a true patriot for standing up to the government when he disapproved of how it was run.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  15. #15
    chica cyclista
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    seems you're onto something

    Quote Originally Posted by shannon
    I think it mostly has to do with being spoiled and America is one of the most materialisticly spoiled and priviledged countries. I think most of the rest of the world sees America in a more realistic light, good and bad, but without so much of the hypocrisy that seems to cloud most Americans perceptions. The hypocritical way society deals with the actions of it's moral misfits bothers me more than the misfits.
    shannon, this kind of goes along with what I've suspected. Maybe I'm way off base, but it seems like many Americans have become privileged to the point of feeling entitled to any and everything, backed up by the instant gratification appeal of wealth, technology and the media. There's this pervasive, all-encompassing belief that in "the land of the free" it means you have a god-given, inalienable right to do whatever the hell you want.

    Merely judging from what I've seen from briefly living in Europe and the views of my foreign friends and acquaintances, I'd hafta agree that the American culture by and large is unbelievably brainwashed and hypocritical. No, nowhere near what countries run by, say, Third World dictators or Communist propaganda-based regimes are, mind you. Merely in light of the race of intellectual giants we firmly seem to believe we are.

    50% of the population is below average. Okay, before you statistical geeks jump my case for that, yes, that's a quote utilising hyperbole that is meant to be humourous. But fercrissakes, get a grip, people.

    Yes, Bocephus, this rant has a basis. To wit: a colleague has this kid who patently refuses to use any sort of rational judgment. This darling daughter has run away from home repeatedly, wrecked multiple cars, been in and out of hospitals, rehab, jail, on and on, blah, blah, blah... and best of all, she turned 18 last year, at which point my own parents in similar circumstances would have gleefully cut me adrift to fend for myself. Where it affects me is the constant friction this has caused within the department. Everyone likes said colleague and thinks she's a great worker. However, mostly due to her daughter's misadventures, my colleague is now risking losing her job due to unreliability based on constantly going to haul her daughter out messes. No, I don't have kids. Yes, this is one of innumerable reasons why I never will. I'm absolutely dumbfounded at the sheer cluelessness motherhood engenders: "Oh, she's a bright kid, everyone just misunderstands her". Bullhockey. I've met this prodigy more times than I care to recount, and trust me, she doesn't have enough wattage upstairs to light a Christmas bulb. But heaven forfend you should tell anyone that their kid is an idiot.

    Bah, I'm going riding...
    Grandpa LFR: "Kid, don't wrestle with pigs; you'll just get covered in crap, and the pig enjoys it."

    /Grandpa LFR

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DougSloan
    People suck. Until I perfect my "you're out of the gene pool" ray gun, I'm at a loss about it.
    I see that you really are trying to be a positive member of society.

    I claim that it is the automobile culture of the US. We have compartmentalized our society in such a way as to remove ourselves from it. Most people don't walk through their neighborhoods anymore. How many of you know more than a couple of your neighbors? Can you walk to the store? When you go out for a drink, can you walk down the street to the local watering hole and have a drink with a diverse (doesn't have to be ethnically, could be educationally or economically) group of people that you can call friends?

    We gravitate to people just like us because we can. Just jump in a car a drive there. When we aren't presented with decent people with other views, then we can cease to challenge our own. Then you are just doomed.

    I say raise the gas tax as high as possible.
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  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gripped
    I see that you really are trying to be a positive member of society.

    I claim that it is the automobile culture of the US. We have compartmentalized our society in such a way as to remove ourselves from it. Most people don't walk through their neighborhoods anymore. How many of you know more than a couple of your neighbors? Can you walk to the store? When you go out for a drink, can you walk down the street to the local watering hole and have a drink with a diverse (doesn't have to be ethnically, could be educationally or economically) group of people that you can call friends?

    We gravitate to people just like us because we can. Just jump in a car a drive there. When we aren't presented with decent people with other views, then we can cease to challenge our own. Then you are just doomed.

    I say raise the gas tax as high as possible.
    Fantastic! Morality, cars, and cheap gas, I'll bet that's somewhere in the back of a lot of peoples minds.

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by lonefrontranger

    Yes, Bocephus, this rant has a basis. To wit: a colleague has this kid who patently refuses to use any sort of rational judgment. This darling daughter has run away from home repeatedly, wrecked multiple cars, been in and out of hospitals, rehab, jail, on and on, blah, blah, blah... and best of all, she turned 18 last year, at which point my own parents in similar circumstances would have gleefully cut me adrift to fend for myself. Where it affects me is the constant friction this has caused within the department. Everyone likes said colleague and thinks she's a great worker. However, mostly due to her daughter's misadventures, my colleague is now risking losing her job due to unreliability based on constantly going to haul her daughter out messes. No, I don't have kids. Yes, this is one of innumerable reasons why I never will. I'm absolutely dumbfounded at the sheer cluelessness motherhood engenders: "Oh, she's a bright kid, everyone just misunderstands her". Bullhockey. I've met this prodigy more times than I care to recount, and trust me, she doesn't have enough wattage upstairs to light a Christmas bulb. But heaven forfend you should tell anyone that their kid is an idiot.

    Bah, I'm going riding...
    No parent is going to see their kid as everyone else sees them. It's the nature of parenting. You want the best for your kids and it breaks your heart when you feel powerless to help them. Unfortunately, it is sometimes best to let them live with the consequences of their own mistakes. I see parents buying new cars for their 16 year old and then when they wreck them another car is proffered. Stupid. Then again, kids will always make mistakes and sometimes it's proper to help them out of a jam--depends on what the issue is and the circumstances. Finally, this kid may have mental issues. Teens will be rebellious and such, but this sounds like abnormal behavior even for a teen. Has the mother tried getting her any psychological help? The mother might also need some counseling from the sounds of it. Seems like she is enabling the daughter to continue this type of behavior. Since the daughter knows the mother will always bail her out she keeps behaving the same way. Maybe it's the only way she can get attention? Who knows. At 18 years old she should be cut loose though. She's old enough to know that her behavior has consequences. Sounds like the situation will only get worse if nothing is done.
    Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

  19. #19

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    idiot teenagers

    Reports of idiot teenagers date back to ancient biblical times. I have directly observed a number of teenagers (even in my own family) who, around age 14-18, become totally irrational, only eventually to come around and be "normal." It's like temporary insanity, and there is absolutely no getting through to them during this time of disconnect.

    I'm at a loss to explain any cause and effect, prevention, or cure for this type of insanity. I think parents must do the best they can to teach right and wrong, responsibility, "being nice" (a lost value), etc., and then hope for the best. The human mind is very complex, and it's bad enough considering the intellectual part of the brain, but then tossing in loads of new chemicals in the teen years is like a nasty software virus messing with a computer. Some people, sort of like computers, almost require a total wipe and reinstallation of the operating system after the virus hits. And, yes, a parent not taking action or blaming others is like simply hitting buttons on the keyboard hoping for results -- won't get the job done.

    In my view, though, having to face these issues is not a sufficient reason to avoid being a parent. Heck, as it seems you have a good head on your shoulders, I'd almost think you have a *responsibilty* to have and raise good kids to offset the "50% below normal." ;-)
    Last edited by DougSloan; 07-07-2004 at 06:57 AM. Reason: error

  20. #20
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    I mostly agree with you and think your analysis is excellent. And having lived in Europe for some time myself, I can say that Americans are the most easily identifiable nationality on the planet. Americans are spoiled beyond compare. Part of that is because I think Americans in general still have that frontier mentality that citizens of other nations, especially Europeans, haven't had for a thousand years or more. As a result, I think Americans see the world they want to see it, from a totally different mindset. Naive? Maybe. But it wasn't too long ago that Americans were looking at Europe and trying to figure out what the hell was going on over there. We didn't want to fight WWI or WWII, largely because we felt those bumbling fools had done it to themselves with their kings and czars and their petty grievances. Who cares if the French and Germans want to go at each other? Just fight it out and get it over with.

    The destruction (mostly) of the class systems in Europe and the rise of Socialism in its place has more to do with their view of Americans than anything Americans have done. Europeans seem to have figured a lot of things out that Americans don't even want to talk about. Health care, for instance. Mass transit. Universal currency. Getting people of multiple cultures and languages to live in peace. Sure, they have plenty of problems, and none of this comes for free. I guess it helps when wars kill lots of people, ravage the country, and destroy a lot of infrastructure. It gives you a chance to make a fresh start. Not exactly a desirable situation for America.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by shannon
    Fantastic! Morality, cars, and cheap gas, I'll bet that's somewhere in the back of a lot of peoples minds.
    LFR's question/comment had a lot to do with the way that we treat each other. To me, she seemed to be commenting on the apperance of a growing lack of civility in the US. I claim that a lot of that has to do with the disintegration of community. And the disintigration of community has a lot to do with the automobile culture of the US. Some points:

    1) If you are know your neighbors and are at least friendly with them, you are less likely to play your music loud late at night. And if you do, the resolution is more likely to be amicable. To much of America, neighbors are tranistory and not many people spend much time getting to know them.

    2) Runaway syndrome: If you screw up, you can just move somewhere else and reinvent yourself. This makes it easy to deny any real responsibility since every move is a fresh start away from those bad influences. The fact that most people fall right back into their same habits is easy to overlook.

    3) Community justice is powerful persuasion. If you get into trouble in a tight knit community, people know about it, talk about it, and sanction that individual. People learn what's what before they start acting atrociously.

    So how do cars fit in? We have designed our society to cater to vehicular transportation. In some communities, you can't even get to stores on foot because there aren't sidewalks and major intersections aren't afforded crosswalks. This allows us to insulate ourselves from the rest of humanity. We are designing our society so the only people we have to interact with are the ones we choose to interact with. That has lead to a highly stratefied society with little tolerance for those people who aren't part of our club.

    You see the same old man every day on your drive to work. He is indigent and asking for money. You think, "I wish they would pass some anti-indigent laws to get him off the street."

    You see the same old man every day on your walk to work. He always says "Hello," and eventually you learn that he is a college graduate. His wife and son died in an auto accident that was caused by a drunk driver. He suffered an inury in that accident that prevented him from continuing his job in construction. He has been on the street since.

    Which perspective will generate the most compassion?

    Lets also take a look at LFR's example of the teen gone bad. That girl might have gotten into trouble anyway but it might have turned out differently. Suppose that when she began to get in trouble, members of her community gave prompt feedback to her mom. Suppose that she was informed through community pressure that there are societal consequences for her bad behavior. Maybe she wouldn't be such a case now.

    Community builds compassion. Community punishes behavior which damages the community.

    Look at some of the differeneces between the US and other countries. The US has more miles of highway per capita, more urban sprawl, less public transportation. We can and do move away from community.

    While on vacation along the Oregon coast recently, I drove past a house just off the three capes loop. It was a new, modern house. It was surrounded by a wrought iron fence about ten feet tall that was capped by razor ribbon. Is that where we are headed? I hope not.
    Pro rep, yo!

  22. #22
    waterproof*
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    Me personally, I'm a big fan of accepting personal responsibility and all the risks that go with daily life.

    I'd rather not have other people telling me what to do, whether they actually "know better" or not.

    Happy Thursday.
    * not actually a Rock Star

  23. #23
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Me personally, I'm a big fan of accepting personal responsibility and all the risks that go with daily life.

    I'd rather not have other people telling me what to do, whether they actually "know better" or not.

    Happy Thursday.
    lonefrontranger ... DougSloan ... Bocephus Jones ... mohair chair ... man that takes me back. Can you dredge one from gutfiddle next time?

  24. #24
    Proud luddite
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    The good news is that 16 years later in 2020 this is no longer an issue! Everyone accepts responsibility for their actions now. In the U.S. we are fortunate that our government’s executive branch is a sterling example of this.

    Now excuse me while I go barf.
    Last edited by azpeterb; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:23 AM.

  25. #25
    Russian Troll Farmer
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    When he got to "Bill Cosby's recent rant", I said to myself, "wait a minute...just how old is this post?". Well, at least in THAT respect, we know where 'personal responsibility' went with him........
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

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