Dogma Sizing Question
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  1. #1
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    Dogma Sizing Question

    I currently have a Dogma 60.1 in size 53. I have a feeling that I'm in between sizes 53 and 51.5. Currently, top tube wise I'm all good (running a 110mm stem) but I feel that seat tube length wise the 53 is too tall for me. I'm thinking of getting a 51.5 for my next upgrade but I fear that by downsizing to the 51.5 the reduction in head tube length will tilt me too aggressively. I have the stem slammed now and the seat post is in up to half the "A" in DOGMA.

    Additionally, I know the DOGMA 2 has a .5cm shorter seat tube compared to my Dogma 60.1 in the same size. But I think I'll need more than .5cm to play with.

    So to recap, do you guys think downsizing to the 51.5 would be a problem for me?

  2. #2
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    There's the $6000 question!

    I suspect I'm also in between a 51.5 and a 53. In December, I rode a 2011 Dogma in 54 and a Paris in 51.5. The Dogma was clearly too big, complete with the usual "straddling a fence" feeling. The Paris instantly felt great. But it was late in the day and I didn't get a lot of time on the Paris. They also didn't have a 53, so I never found out how that would have felt. (And once I realized they weren't going to be competitive on price and that I wouldn't be buying from them, it didn't seem fair to go back just to ride their bikes for free.) I also have a professional (very detailed) fitting I paid for using Cyfac's system and comparing it to the Pinarello geometry best I can (they're not 100% comparable) suggests I'm between the 51.5 and 53.

    In the end, I decided to order a Paris in 51.5. My thinking was that traditional wisdom used to be (back in day, 38 years ago when I bought my Paramount) that if you're struggling to choose, go with with the smaller frame because it'll be lighter and easier to control. (Who knows if that's still the conventional wisdom but if it's not, perhaps someone can step in to comment.) Also, you can do things like spacers to fix something that's a little too small but fixing something that's a little too big is another matter entirely.

    The swing factor, though, was the crank. I've been on 170s for 38 years. Two years ago, I had an overuse injury in my right knee. I recovered (with a few months of PT) but it was definitely a reminder that good health can be quite fragile. I've made it 61 years; let's not screw it up now. I love bicycling and I'm not interested to risk that. I know 170s work for me and that's what's on the 51.5. Size 53 uses the "proportionally" larger 172.5.

    I'm still waiting for the Paris to arrive (CC told me they received it from Gita yesterday) and I'm pretty sure I made the right decision or, at least, a pretty good one. But that doesn't mean I'm not a little scared. After all, this is a $6000 bike. Let's do something dumb. Yesterday, I was back on the phone with CC for some handholding, reassuring me down out of the tree one last time before they ship it to me.

    I think I'm going to be very happy with my choice. But my goodness, I'm going to feel a lot better after I've had the bike for a while and have had a chance to confirm that.

    For comparison to your own situation, I'm 5'9", with a 32.2" inseam, 56" shoulder height and 41.8" arm length.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Hamilton View Post
    There's the $6000 question!

    I suspect I'm also in between a 51.5 and a 53. In December, I rode a 2011 Dogma in 54 and a Paris in 51.5. The Dogma was clearly too big, complete with the usual "straddling a fence" feeling. The Paris instantly felt great. But it was late in the day and I didn't get a lot of time on the Paris. They also didn't have a 53, so I never found out how that would have felt. (And once I realized they weren't going to be competitive on price and that I wouldn't be buying from them, it didn't seem fair to go back just to ride their bikes for free.) I also have a professional (very detailed) fitting I paid for using Cyfac's system and comparing it to the Pinarello geometry best I can (they're not 100% comparable) suggests I'm between the 51.5 and 53.

    In the end, I decided to order a Paris in 51.5. My thinking was that traditional wisdom used to be (back in day, 38 years ago when I bought my Paramount) that if you're struggling to choose, go with with the smaller frame because it'll be lighter and easier to control. (Who knows if that's still the conventional wisdom but if it's not, perhaps someone can step in to comment.) Also, you can do things like spacers to fix something that's a little too small but fixing something that's a little too big is another matter entirely.

    The swing factor, though, was the crank. I've been on 170s for 38 years. Two years ago, I had an overuse injury in my right knee. I recovered (with a few months of PT) but it was definitely a reminder that good health can be quite fragile. I've made it 61 years; let's not screw it up now. I love bicycling and I'm not interested to risk that. I know 170s work for me and that's what's on the 51.5. Size 53 uses the "proportionally" larger 172.5.

    I'm still waiting for the Paris to arrive (CC told me they received it from Gita yesterday) and I'm pretty sure I made the right decision or, at least, a pretty good one. But that doesn't mean I'm not a little scared. After all, this is a $6000 bike. Let's do something dumb. Yesterday, I was back on the phone with CC for some handholding, reassuring me down out of the tree one last time before they ship it to me.

    I think I'm going to be very happy with my choice. But my goodness, I'm going to feel a lot better after I've had the bike for a while and have had a chance to confirm that.

    For comparison to your own situation, I'm 5'9", with a 32.2" inseam, 56" shoulder height and 41.8" arm length.
    Thank for the very through rough response. I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam (I have a long torso). After researching on this topic the whole afternoon, I think downsizing to a 51.5 shouldn't be a problem. My fitter keeps telling me to lower the saddle an additional 5cm and that would probably somewhat even out the head tube reduction on the smaller 51.5 Dogma. Oh well, should have gotten it right the first time.

    Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe. In comparable size they have a more relaxed geometry which might be good for longer rides (not that I have any existing problems with my position now).

    Please feel free to update this post with your experience on your Paris once you get it from CC. I'd love to know how your "fitting in" your new bike. Congrats!

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by mykol77 View Post
    Thank for the very through rough response. I'm 5'10" with a 32" inseam (I have a long torso). After researching on this topic the whole afternoon, I think downsizing to a 51.5 shouldn't be a problem. My fitter keeps telling me to lower the saddle an additional 5cm and that would probably somewhat even out the head tube reduction on the smaller 51.5 Dogma. Oh well, should have gotten it right the first time.

    Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe. In comparable size they have a more relaxed geometry which might be good for longer rides (not that I have any existing problems with my position now).

    Please feel free to update this post with your experience on your Paris once you get it from CC. I'd love to know how your "fitting in" your new bike. Congrats!
    I'm 5' 71/2" with a 30" inseam. My Dogma2 frame is a size 50cm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mykol77 View Post
    Then again maybe I should go for a sloping top tube frame, A Spesh SL4 maybe
    I'm so traditional after so long on a chrome-lugged Reynolds 531 frame, it's quite daring for to me to try carbon. But I draw the line at top tubes. Those have to be level. Sloping top tubes just don't look right to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicole Hamilton View Post
    I'm so traditional after so long on a chrome-lugged Reynolds 531 frame, it's quite daring for to me to try carbon. But I draw the line at top tubes. Those have to be level. Sloping top tubes just don't look right to me.
    Ha! Yes, I agree if it was not for my short legs and long torso.

    As for trying out a CF frame you won't regret it. I came from a Trek 2.1 before upgrading to a Pina FP3 and then to the Dogma and I have to say upgrading from Aluminum to CF was a world of difference. You are gunna love your Paris!

  7. #7
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    I am 5'8" with a 32" inseam. I ride a 53" FPQuatro with 172.5mm cranks, a 100mm stem and 110mm of seat post showing. My LBS fit me with several follow up adjustments over two weeks. Not sure how you guys are riding 51.5 at 5'9"...

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by socal-k View Post
    I am 5'8" with a 32" inseam. I ride a 53" FPQuatro with 172.5mm cranks, a 100mm stem and 110mm of seat post showing. My LBS fit me with several follow up adjustments over two weeks. Not sure how you guys are riding 51.5 at 5'9"...
    Maybe I have short legs and long torso or some other oddness and don't know it. I can't say. All I know is that I am 5'9" and I've now got enough experience (a bit over 200 miles and all my adjustments finished) to confirm that the 51.5 works perfectly for me. Funny thing was that when I got all done tweaking, not because I set out to do this (I started out trying to set things according to my fitting instructions) but because it wasn't comfortable until I did, I ended up with almost exactly the same riding position as I have on my Paramount but on this much more compact, agile frame. Seat to BB angle is exactly the same. Seat to pedal at full extension is exactly the same. Crank arm length is exactly the same. (I tried the 172.5s they sent in error and they hurt my knees.) I also ended up with the same Brooks saddle after discovering that the Most Ocelot was really just a torture device.

    The only thing that ended up changing was the reach to the bars, which came a little closer and dropped a little, exactly as I'd intended.

    The bike fits me. But that's not to say I might not have been able to recreate the same riding position on the next size up. Who knows. I think there is overlap given the way you can move the seat up and down, etc.

  9. #9
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    If your seatpost clamp is at the "A" on the "Dogma" decal, then I think the 53cm is too big for you. Naturally the bike doesn't even look right if the the seatpost is that low. Remember Pinarello frames tend to run larger. A 53cm Pinarello seat tube length is more like a 55cm for other brands (Specialized, Trek, etc). I'm 5'11 with 32" inseam and ride a 53cm Dogma. The Specialized I once had was a 56cm and fitted me well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tjjm36m3 View Post
    If your seatpost clamp is at the "A" on the "Dogma" decal, then I think the 53cm is too big for you. Naturally the bike doesn't even look right if the the seatpost is that low. Remember Pinarello frames tend to run larger. A 53cm Pinarello seat tube length is more like a 55cm for other brands (Specialized, Trek, etc). I'm 5'11 with 32" inseam and ride a 53cm Dogma. The Specialized I once had was a 56cm and fitted me well.
    Yes. It is a tad big, although I am running a 110mm stem so I know length-wide I'm all good. I actually also ride a 54 Spesh. My next Pina will be a 51.5

    And when I meant the "A" on the "DOGMA" decal, its viewed from the drive side where the orientation for the "DOGMA" decal is with the "D" pointing up. Like:

    D
    O
    G
    M
    A


  11. #11
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    Dogma Sizing and Standover height.

    I am 5'7" (170cm) with a 31' (79cm) inseam.
    This afternoon I had a fitting and compared my fit sizes to the Dogma 51.5 and the 50.
    The one stumbling block that we had was standover height.

    I currently ride a compact frame with a 54.5 Top Tube but with a slanting toptube - compact frame - a Giant TCR. I am looking to make the move to the shorter toptube with the Dogma purchase but am wondering about standover height.

    Any suggestions?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
    I am 5'7" (170cm) with a 31' (79cm) inseam.
    This afternoon I had a fitting and compared my fit sizes to the Dogma 51.5 and the 50.
    The one stumbling block that we had was standover height.
    How much of a standover problem do you have? I assume you mean that when you lift the handlebars, you get the front wheel only maybe a couple inches off the ground (give or take) before it hits you? That's what you should expect with a flat top tube. Given your inseam (I'm 32.2 on a 51.5 Paris), I suspicious the 51.5 would be too big. The 50 should be okay, but could be a tiny bit big. Unfortunately, it's a big jump to 46.5, the next size down, so that one might be too small.

  13. #13
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    I am 5' 10" with a 32.5" inseam and I ride a 55cm Dogma 60.1. I also have a Willier Cento1 (large) and a Moota Vampots CR (56 cm). All 3 bikes are running 100 mm stems. When I was ordering my Dogma, I was deciding between 54 and 55 cm sizes. I'm glad I opted for the 55.
    Kokopelli Racing

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    51.5 Dogma2 here. I'm 5.8 and my inseam is 33. It fits great and came of a 55cm 2008 Prince. It was to big and didn't look sized right. I'm sure I could easily ride a 53 Dogma as well and it would look right sized as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie13 View Post
    51.5 Dogma2 here. I'm 5.8 and my inseam is 33. It fits great and came of a 55cm 2008 Prince. It was to big and didn't look sized right. I'm sure I could easily ride a 53 Dogma as well and it would look right sized as well.
    Do you have any spacers under the stem and how long of a stem are you using?

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    I have one 10mm spacer and a 120X42 Most Talon integrated handlebar. I could slam the stem, but I ride close to 200mi just on the weekend and the extra 10mm spacer us just perfect for those long rides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie13 View Post
    I have one 10mm spacer and a 120X42 Most Talon integrated handlebar. I could slam the stem, but I ride close to 200mi just on the weekend and the extra 10mm spacer us just perfect for those long rides.
    Perfect. I'm currently have the 110X42 slammed. So downsizing would have me running a 120x42 with a 10mm spacer to approximate my current saddle to handlebar drop. Thanks!

  18. #18
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    My saddle handlebar drop is 9cm with a saddle height of 73cm from center BB to top of saddle (middle)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie13 View Post
    My saddle handlebar drop is 9cm with a saddle height of 73cm from center BB to top of saddle (middle)
    Thanks Frankie! Do you think you can post a picture showing how much seatpost is showing on your Dogma? I'm curious to know since my center BB to top of saddle is 28" .7 inch lower than what you have now.

  20. #20
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    Here you go mykol77. I hope this will help since buying a new frame isn't exactly cheap.
    Please note, these pictures have been taken first week January when I just finished the build and they show 20mm spacers. I was more then 2,5 month of the bike because of some skin issues and had to get my flex back before I started to remove 10mm of spacers and did cut down the fork tube.The saddle height stayed the same and is still like the picture shows.
    I also changed the saddle to an all white Romin Evo Pro but didn't change the height of the seat.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Frankie13; 04-28-2012 at 06:18 PM.

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    Thank you soo much Frankie. The pics look familiar, I think we bought our frames from the same place. I also see we prefer the same saddles. I have an sworks toupe on my Dogma and the Romin Evo Pro on my Spesh. Tried all the nice Italian saddles but my butt still preferred the Spesh saddles. LOL.

    Have you ridden the Dogma 60.1, if so, can you give a comparision? Any real noticeable difference?! And are those HEDS tubulars or clinchers?

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    No problem, I always love to help out a fellow cyclist. I have not ridden a Dogma but came of a Pinarello Prince. I can not help you with a comparison between the two Dogma's. The wheels are HED Stinger 6 Tubular with a Power Tap Pro SL+ , and the front HED Stinger 4 Tubular and have the new Continental Competition 25mm mounted. I also have a set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra two, but the new wider HED rim design makes this for me the best wheels I have ever ridden, and have not used my Boras since last year June.
    I just started my own Rennrad Camp and coaching Buisness and became a HED wheel dealer as well. I love my Dogma2, but I also just did build another Bike that I use for my Cycling camps and training, and it's an Canyon Ultimate CF.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie13 View Post
    No problem, I always love to help out a fellow cyclist. I have not ridden a Dogma but came of a Pinarello Prince. I can not help you with a comparison between the two Dogma's. The wheels are HED Stinger 6 Tubular with a Power Tap Pro SL+ , and the front HED Stinger 4 Tubular and have the new Continental Competition 25mm mounted. I also have a set of Campagnolo Bora Ultra two, but the new wider HED rim design makes this for me the best wheels I have ever ridden, and have not used my Boras since last year June.
    I just started my own Rennrad Camp and coaching Buisness and became a HED wheel dealer as well. I love my Dogma2, but I also just did build another Bike that I use for my Cycling camps and training, and it's an Canyon Ultimate CF.
    Would love to get those HEDs if only they were clinchers...

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    Quote Originally Posted by mykol77 View Post
    Would love to get those HEDs if only they were clinchers...
    Well, PM and we can look into it. The also come as clincher version.
    Like I said shoot me a PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frankie13 View Post
    Well, PM and we can look into it. The also come as clincher version.
    Like I said shoot me a PM.
    All carbon clincher with the ghosted decals? When the time comes, I'll pm you.

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