Crime and Punishment
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  1. #1
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    Crime and Punishment

    DISCLAIMER: I know there are a couple regulars here who are 100% opposed to capital punishment. THIS THREAD ISN'T FOR YOU.

    For those of you who support capital punishment in some capacity or other, here's the question:

    Where do you draw the line in regards to what is a capital offense?

    The shooting looters thread is what is driving the question.


    I am unapologetically of the 'you break in to my home, I get to shoot you whether or not you're threatening me' and the 'you take my stuff I get to hunt you down and kill you' school. I guess that's the libertarian in me defending personal property, etc, etc.


    Just curious.

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    The crime has to be egregious.

    I think the scumbags at Enron, the ones who made the decision to cut supply to profit on the "shortage" and then destroyed the company, should be eligible.

    Someone who kills in a depraved manner, perhaps, assuming they're mentally competent and have a fair trial.

    Someone breaks into your home while you're there and you feel threatened, kill them.

    Somebody steals your bicycle: almost as bad as Enron but I could only support life in prison.

    Actually, I really think the death penalty should be reserved for white collar crimes. What CEO is willing to risk his life for extra ill-gotten gains?

    Those who get the death penalty are overwhelmingly poor and come from horrendous backrounds. That does not excuse their behavior. But I think it's impossible to instill a respect for life, which should be our ultimate goal, when we sanction killing.

    We are the most violent first world country. Violence and retribution are acceptable here and you are a prime example of it.

    If our first response wasn't to shoot to kill, we might not raise so many angry, violent individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    DISCLAIMER: I know there are a couple regulars here who are 100% opposed to capital punishment. THIS THREAD ISN'T FOR YOU.

    For those of you who support capital punishment in some capacity or other, here's the question:

    Where do you draw the line in regards to what is a capital offense?

    The shooting looters thread is what is driving the question.


    I am unapologetically of the 'you break in to my home, I get to shoot you whether or not you're threatening me' and the 'you take my stuff I get to hunt you down and kill you' school. I guess that's the libertarian in me defending personal property, etc, etc.


    Just curious.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

  3. #3
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    If our first response wasn't to shoot to kill, we might not raise so many angry, violent individuals.
    You can't be serious.

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    Take your finger off the trigger and think for a minute.

    We're so much more violent than other first world countries. Why is that? Are Americans just genetically programmed to be violent? I suppose that's a possibilty though I've seen no studies about it.

    That leaves environment. We are violent because we accept violence. Other societies don't accept violence and, consequently, are less violent.

    Killing is violence. When a government kills its own citizens, one cannot help but internalize that killing is an acceptable solution to a problem. If we weren't so violent in all aspects of society the death penalty wouldn't be such an important issue.

    Since we are, I believe we should be looking for ways to teach people to use their brains rather than their fists to settle disputes. Instead we have cops who beat the **** out of people, parents who hit their kids, kids who do the most unspeakable things to each other, sometimes with their parent's knowledge, macho gun-owning douchebags who really do believe that their TV is more important than a human life (what culture of life?), churches that won't allow people to be taught how not to get pregnant so that their only option is to kill the unwanted fetus or raise a kid they don't want, and a government that enjoys bullying entire countries that don't think the way we do and executes mentally incompetent people.

    Treat people with respect and they generally respond in kind. Treat them like they're a blight on society and don't be surprised when they don't want to become a part of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Live Steam
    You can't be serious.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    Take your finger off the trigger and think for a minute.

    We're so much more violent than other first world countries. Why is that? Are Americans just genetically programmed to be violent? I suppose that's a possibilty though I've seen no studies about it.

    That leaves environment. We are violent because we accept violence. Other societies don't accept violence and, consequently, are less violent.

    Killing is violence. When a government kills its own citizens, one cannot help but internalize that killing is an acceptable solution to a problem. If we weren't so violent in all aspects of society the death penalty wouldn't be such an important issue.

    Since we are, I believe we should be looking for ways to teach people to use their brains rather than their fists to settle disputes. Instead we have cops who beat the **** out of people, parents who hit their kids, kids who do the most unspeakable things to each other, sometimes with their parent's knowledge, macho gun-owning douchebags who really do believe that their TV is more important than a human life (what culture of life?), churches that won't allow people to be taught how not to get pregnant so that their only option is to kill the unwanted fetus or raise a kid they don't want, and a government that enjoys bullying entire countries that don't think the way we do and executes mentally incompetent people.

    Treat people with respect and they generally respond in kind. Treat them like they're a blight on society and don't be surprised when they don't want to become a part of it.
    How did the owner of a TV set become a douch bag and the friggin thief become the victim in your eyes?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    If our first response wasn't to shoot to kill, we might not raise so many angry, violent individuals.
    Maybe, maybe not. But if we were better marksmen....
    Last edited by KenB; 09-22-2005 at 07:30 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    Treat people with respect and they generally respond in kind. Treat them like they're a blight on society and don't be surprised when they don't want to become a part of it.
    Should offer the guy stealing my TV a cup of coffee or beer so we have something to discuss the weather over?

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    Because anyone who thinks that shooting someone for stealing their TV is a reasonable response is a douchebag.

    Remember Jesus? That nutty guy from the Mid-East whose anger was reserved for those who coveted their possessions and who forgave those who took what was his.

    Remember an eye for an eye? That was in direct response to killing and maiming criminals for petty acts, the very thing you righteous Repubs are advocating.

    One thing's for sure: your way isn't working.




    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    How did the owner of a TV set become a douch bag and the friggin thief become the victim in your eyes?
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

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    No. The guy should be arrested and prosecuted.

    If you insist on targeting the individual you won't ever force change and make this country better.

    If society is going to hell in a handbasket, it's you guys who are carrying it.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    Should offer the guy stealing my TV a cup of coffee or beer so we have something to discuss the weather over?
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    No. The guy should be arrested and prosecuted.

    If you insist on targeting the individual you won't ever force change and make this country better.

    If society is going to hell in a handbasket, it's you guys who are carrying it.
    Your enlightend and sensitive manner didn't apply to the douchbag who owned a TV set and a gun and selfishly decided he didn't want to lose either one. Burglars are seldom prosecuted. They are all over town and known to law enforcement. I don't want to rehabilitate them, I want to live my life without fear of losing everything I own to a junkie with no job, no future and no hope. I know what I'm talking about, I have been burglarized several times. You understand them, I'll shoot them if I catch them in my home. Of course that's the problem, I won't catch them either.

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    KenB, I appreciate where you are coming from on this subject. Here is my take. If the guy, I mean scum bag, is running off with a TV save your ammo. Who cares if someone steals a tv? Now, If he is taking the TV in order to test your resolve to defend yourself against personal attack, you've definately got to double tap him.

    Obviously, this involves some split second decision making, however, if you are in Texas don't sweat it. Just shoot, because from what I can tell, you are legally covered either way.

    IMHO, save the pistols for the range. High capacity semi-auto shotguns are the solution for this scenario.
    Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.

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    It just seems to me that it would be more effective to deal with what turns so many people to crime than to try to catch them after they've become criminals.

    Kind of like using a condom so an abortion isn't necessary.

    I'm not in any way suggesting that criminals should be given peace and love. I was mugged once and had more than one bicycle stolen. My mother was held up for her car but, luckily, wasn't hurt. I hate the bad things people do at least as much as you. But we have so many violent criminals compared to other developed countries shouldn't we be trying to figure out why that is? Catching and killing them doesn't appear to be working very well.



    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    Your enlightend and sensitive manner didn't apply to the douchbag who owned a TV set and a gun and selfishly decided he didn't want to lose either one. Burglars are seldom prosecuted. They are all over town and known to law enforcement. I don't want to rehabilitate them, I want to live my life without fear of losing everything I own to a junkie with no job, no future and no hope. I know what I'm talking about, I have been burglarized several times. You understand them, I'll shoot them if I catch them in my home. Of course that's the problem, I won't catch them either.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by jbrumm
    KenB, I appreciate where you are coming from on this subject. Here is my take. If the guy, I mean scum bag, is running off with a TV save your ammo. Who cares if someone steals a tv? Now, If he is taking the TV in order to test your resolve to defend yourself against personal attack, you've definately got to double tap him.

    Obviously, this involves some split second decision making, however, if you are in Texas don't sweat it. Just shoot, because from what I can tell, you are legally covered either way.

    IMHO, save the pistols for the range. High capacity semi-auto shotguns are the solution for this scenario.
    Pumps don't jam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    It just seems to me that it would be more effective to deal with what turns so many people to crime than to try to catch them after they've become criminals.

    Kind of like using a condom so an abortion isn't necessary.

    I'm not in any way suggesting that criminals should be given peace and love. I was mugged once and had more than one bicycle stolen. My mother was held up for her car but, luckily, wasn't hurt. I hate the bad things people do at least as much as you. But we have so many violent criminals compared to other developed countries shouldn't we be trying to figure out why that is? Catching and killing them doesn't appear to be working very well.
    We don't tend to kill them, we put them in jail after a history of offenses and then let them out after serving a fraction of their time. We have antiquated drug laws and our criminal justice system is flooded with low level drug offenders. It may well be time for a realistic approach to drugs, legalizing some of them and trying to control the distribution and violence that goes with it. Drugs drive our high crime rate in nearly every aspect, from burglary to armed robery to murder. There is a real danger to anyone surprising a burglar in their home who just may be high or strung out needing to get high. Shoot and then call the cops. Your mother was lucky. Car jackers are unpredictable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    Pumps don't jam.
    I hear you on that. You're definately correct on this. Stress situations require a pump gun. What would you recommend for guage?
    Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.

    Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    It just seems to me that it would be more effective to deal with what turns so many people to crime than to try to catch them after they've become criminals.

    Kind of like using a condom so an abortion isn't necessary.

    I'm not in any way suggesting that criminals should be given peace and love. I was mugged once and had more than one bicycle stolen. My mother was held up for her car but, luckily, wasn't hurt. I hate the bad things people do at least as much as you. But we have so many violent criminals compared to other developed countries shouldn't we be trying to figure out why that is? Catching and killing them doesn't appear to be working very well.
    Dude, Arm yourself. For some reason trouble seems to follow you and your family. Philosophize all you want, just have a little something for the guys that aren't as understanding as yourself. You never know, but when you do it's too late to get a license to carry and visit the gun store.
    Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran, the Muslim book of scripture, should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on Earth.

    Omar M. Ahmad, founder of Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR)

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    I'm not philosophizing. I'm trying to find a way that works better.

    You'd rather deal with the criminal than with crime.

    That'd be perfect if we could find every criminal and ensure that they never hurt anyone again. Since that's not gonna happen, the only solution seems to be to try to create fewer criminals in the first place.

    If you've never been the victim of crime I have to wonder why you feel so threatened.

    BTW, if I had a gun when I was mugged it would have been used against me since the guy totally surprised me and had a knife at my side before I knew what happened. Unless I was carrying the gun in my hand, ready to shoot, it would be in the hands of that punk now and I might be dead.

    And Texas, for all its executions, seems to have no shortage of violent offenders.

    Quote Originally Posted by jbrumm
    Dude, Arm yourself. For some reason trouble seems to follow you and your family. Philosophize all you want, just have a little something for the guys that aren't as understanding as yourself. You never know, but when you do it's too late to get a license to carry and visit the gun store.
    Last edited by purplepaul; 09-22-2005 at 08:34 PM.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

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    Ok...

    I'm all for it if I'm allowed to fertilize my grass with your "brains" if you step through my front gate with the no trespassing sign. You know who you are, stop by some time. ;)
    Last edited by rocco; 09-22-2005 at 08:40 PM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    No. The guy should be arrested and prosecuted.
    And then found guilty and executed. All in the same day, preferrably. I don't buy into the 'life is precious' line of thought. MY life and the lives of those I care about are precious to me. I'm generally indifferent to the rest.

    I think the problem is that society is too tolerant of crime by way of being too willing to justify the actions of those who commit the crimes, too eager to villify the victims and too soft on those we decide to prosecute. I feel absolutely zero empathy or sympathy for a crackhead who was blown away while trying to rob some poor working slob of the TV he busted his ass in some sh*t job for months to give to his family.

    So you can think I'm the problem and I can think you're the problem. But that wasn't the point of the post. I'm just curious as to how my beliefs on the topic line up with others here.

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    It's telling that you're indifferent to people. You don't want to make things better, just make sure no one trespasses against you.

    Society tolerant of crime? I assume you're not referring to the drunk drivers who have to kill someone before they lose their license (temporarily).

    Society hates crime but hasn't found a way to combat it successfully. Does is really not matter to you that, as a country, the USA has more violence than our peers? Should a caring citizen not want to understand that even as they support punishing criminals? I understand you don't pretend to be a caring citizen, but I'm referring to those who purport to be.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    And then found guilty and executed. All in the same day, preferrably. I don't buy into the 'life is precious' line of thought. MY life and the lives of those I care about are precious to me. I'm generally indifferent to the rest.

    I think the problem is that society is too tolerant of crime by way of being too willing to justify the actions of those who commit the crimes, too eager to villify the victims and too soft on those we decide to prosecute. I feel absolutely zero empathy or sympathy for a crackhead who was blown away while trying to rob some poor working slob of the TV he busted his ass in some sh*t job for months to give to his family.

    So you can think I'm the problem and I can think you're the problem. But that wasn't the point of the post. I'm just curious as to how my beliefs on the topic line up with others here.
    It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the most responsive to change.

    Charles Darwin

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    It's telling that you're indifferent to people. You don't want to make things better, just make sure no one trespasses against you.

    Society tolerant of crime? I assume you're not referring to the drunk drivers who have to kill someone before they lose their license (temporarily).

    Society hates crime but hasn't found a way to combat it successfully. Does is really not matter to you that, as a country, the USA has more violence than our peers? Should a caring citizen not want to understand that even as they support punishing criminals? I understand you don't pretend to be a caring citizen, but I'm referring to those who purport to be.
    First off, we have no peers. There isn't a nation on the planet with our population, our resources, our ethnic diversity, our form of government and our economy. All those things combined set us far away from the rest. It's apples and rocks. So, no, it doesn't really matter to me because it just doesn't apply.

    If they're not tresspassing against me there's a real good chance they're not tresspassing against you, unless they know you're an easy target.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    DISCLAIMER: I know there are a couple regulars here who are 100% opposed to capital punishment. THIS THREAD ISN'T FOR YOU.

    For those of you who support capital punishment in some capacity or other, here's the question:

    Where do you draw the line in regards to what is a capital offense?

    The shooting looters thread is what is driving the question.


    I am unapologetically of the 'you break in to my home, I get to shoot you whether or not you're threatening me' and the 'you take my stuff I get to hunt you down and kill you' school. I guess that's the libertarian in me defending personal property, etc, etc.


    Just curious.

    It's late but in short, I'm pretty much for shooting intruders NQA. I have an intrusion plan for my home to prevent the mistaken identity issue. Anyway, all my material posessions are insured at replacement value, so if somebody rips off my TV/DVD/Stereo, I get new sh1t!

    Wow, too much homework, I'm not making sense.

    Deek
    "The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese"--unknown

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    This thread is not, so far, talking much about capital punishment.

    Defending your property and person is self defense. That is the action of an individual. I am happy to say that at times people are perfectly justified in killing other people.

    Capital punishment is the STATE killing someone who has been convicted of a crime.

    Given the propensity for the state to make mistakes in prosecution, and the fact that once dead you cannot correct the mistake but you can correct a mistake with an imprisoned person, I don't see any benefit to me or society of capital punishment over life in prison without the possibility of parole. When all the resources of the government are leveled at a single (usually poor) individual, the advantage goes with the power. The founders recognized that, which is why we have certain rights. I don't trust the government to get it right. I want those wrongly convicted to have a chance to be let free. I also want scum to suffer and rot in prison.

    Those who don't trust the government to run programs to feed poor children but do trust the government to kill people have a pretty clear contradiction in their thinking.
    .
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by purplepaul
    It's telling that you're indifferent to people. You don't want to make things better, just make sure no one trespasses against you.

    .
    As unhappy as it makes me to say this...our society as it stands (and as I see it) is predicated on holding back the levees. Not fixing them, not making them strong, not finding an alternative or a way to take the pressure off by diverting, using, or dispensing this potentially valuable resource.

    We have left the community that we were colonized on, wrecked its historical significance to our growth and have instead morphed it into rugged individualism and the hero ethic. By not treasuring our sense of community, we divest ourselves from it and have become what we have become...will it catch up to us eventually, yes and if you look around you will already find that it has...but the reality of our plight will not show its face for another generation or more.

    For proof I can only submit this question...

    Do all roads still lead to Rome?
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

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    Hey man....

    Quote Originally Posted by dr hoo
    This thread is not, so far, talking much about capital punishment.

    Defending your property and person is self defense. That is the action of an individual. I am happy to say that at times people are perfectly justified in killing other people.

    Capital punishment is the STATE killing someone who has been convicted of a crime.

    Given the propensity for the state to make mistakes in prosecution, and the fact that once dead you cannot correct the mistake but you can correct a mistake with an imprisoned person, I don't see any benefit to me or society of capital punishment over life in prison without the possibility of parole. When all the resources of the government are leveled at a single (usually poor) individual, the advantage goes with the power. The founders recognized that, which is why we have certain rights. I don't trust the government to get it right. I want those wrongly convicted to have a chance to be let free. I also want scum to suffer and rot in prison.

    Those who don't trust the government to run programs to feed poor children but do trust the government to kill people have a pretty clear contradiction in their thinking.
    ...stop ruining the testosterone love fest here.Can't you see that all these macho guy's want to talk about blowing people away like in some computer game.Of course if it came down to actually doing it most wouldn't have the balls to actually pull the trigger.But it does make for some funny reading.Keep your Tim Allen grunting to a minimum MEN.
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