D-Day Schmee-Day - The Russians Defeated the Nazis
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  1. #1
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    D-Day Schmee-Day - The Russians Defeated the Nazis


  2. #2
    RST
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    yes, the Soviet role in WWII is often underestimated but D-Day certainly hastened the defeat of the Nazis and ensured fewer people had to live behind the Iron Curtain for 50 years.

    Personally, I was glad to see the Canadians getting some recognition this year. They fought from the beginning of the war, took one of the five D-Day beaches and 10% of the men landed on D-Day were Canadians. For a country of about 11 million at the time their per capita contribution was enormous.

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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by RST
    yes, the Soviet role in WWII is often underestimated but D-Day certainly hastened the defeat of the Nazis and ensured fewer people had to live behind the Iron Curtain for 50 years.

    Personally, I was glad to see the Canadians getting some recognition this year. They fought from the beginning of the war, took one of the five D-Day beaches and 10% of the men landed on D-Day were Canadians. For a country of about 11 million at the time their per capita contribution was enormous.
    The canadians would have done even better if they hadn't been wearing skates, word is that a German Panzer hit one of them with a tank and the entire Canadian brigade dropped their gloves and jumped on it.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    The canadians would have done even better if they hadn't been wearing skates, word is that a German Panzer hit one of them with a tank and the entire Canadian brigade dropped their gloves and jumped on it.
    Poor old Flames, I was gutted for them. Was in Calgary in 1989(?) for their Stanley Cup win, which was excellent.

    Lots of D-Day stuff in my original home town of Portsmouth recently and I was glad to see so many of the old guys still around.

  5. #5
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    Old news

    Stalin never cared how many men he lost in a battle. He always had more.
    Without the Americans, the Soviets would have been in France.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    Yeah, whatever. Where did they get all the supplies that allowed them to fight? And where were they in the Pacific war? The USA and UK were fighting major wars on multiple fronts that had to be launched and supplied by sea. The Russians only had one to worry about, and it was on land.

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    The two major items that we gave to the Soviets were Trucks and C-rations ( or was it K-rations). Just about averything else, was made in Russia. We also gave them a bunch of crap aircraft that they put to good use. The crap P-39's were shot out of the skies by the Japanese, but the Russians put it to good use as a ground attack aircraft.
    If you look at the military deaths, I think the Soviets had about 20 times ours.( Or more)
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY
    The two major items that we gave to the Soviets were Trucks and C-rations ( or was it K-rations). Just about averything else, was made in Russia. We also gave them a bunch of crap aircraft that they put to good use. The crap P-39's were shot out of the skies by the Japanese, but the Russians put it to good use as a ground attack aircraft.
    If you look at the military deaths, I think the Soviets had about 20 times ours.( Or more)
    Actually, it goes much deeper than that. We opened up our laboratories and gave the Russians all kinds of stuff that they had been trying to steal for years. Industrial processes and chemical processess (e.g., synthetic rubber) that made a huge difference in their war effort. There was a huge conduit of stuff flowing out of America into Russia, including nuclear secrets.

    I don't want to minimize the Russian efforts against the Nazis, but neither do I accept that it is they, rather than the combined allied effort, that defeated the Nazis. The Russians never made it to Africa or Italy. The Russians never had to fight u-boats in the atlantic that were trying to sink ships destined for Murmansk. The Russians never had to fight naval battles anywhere.

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    True, but we still got off cheap. While the Americans lost 500,000 in both theaters of war, the Soviets lost 10-12 million combat deaths and another 10 million civilian deaths.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MR_GRUMPY
    True, but we still got off cheap. While the Americans lost 500,000 in both theaters of war, the Soviets lost 10-12 million combat deaths and another 10 million civilian deaths.
    A lot of those deaths were due to the incompetance, poor training, and outdated equipment of the Russian Army, which had lost its best leaders in Stalin's purges. And of course the Russian winter had a huge effect.

  11. #11
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    Hitler's great blunder was attacking the Soviets, think how different the world may have been if he would have been content with western Europe.

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    Penal Soldiers and the NKVD

    "Penal battalions" composed of "enemies of the people" (i.e., inmates of prisons and camps, and luckless peasants, including women and children) were hurled in waves against German defensive positions. Frequently unarmed and at times deprived of camouflaged uniforms to better draw enemy fire, they were often used to clear minefields. With NKVD machine-gunners poised behind them, they were forced across minefields until a path was cleared. The wounded were killed off by the NKVD "Stalins Secret Police/Soldiers). General Ratov, chief of the Soviet Military Mission to Britain, actually declined an offer of British mine-detectors, remarking that "in the Soviet Union we use people." SMERSH (from the initials "Death to Spies"), the NKVD's special murder arm made famous by Ian Fleming in his James Bond thrillers, was created in 1942 as an additional guard on Soviet front-line troops. The NKVD placed large heavily-armed formations at the rear of Soviet units to discourage withdrawals and to pick off "stragglers" and "cowards." In a number of instances, NKVD units fought pitched battles with Red Army detachments trying to retreat in the face of superior enemy forces. Stalin continued to purge his armed forces even as the Axis advanced. It is likely that hundreds of thousands of Russians were killed in such actions.

    Makes the draft rather tame eh?

  13. #13
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    Kids today

    Despite Grumpy's hints, these kids still don't realize that it is a huge insult to refer to the Red Army as "Russian". The Soviet Union drew its strength from many ethnicities and communities. Many of the great liberations near the war's end were conducted primarily by Chekz, Lithuanians, Slovs, even Chechans.

    "Russia's" last blaze of glory was nearly 40 years before WWII, and it will be some time before she comes close to that level again.

  14. #14
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    Yes, many were also from the "wild wild east" of Siberia.
    If your opinion differs from mine, ..........Too bad.
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    Dogbert.

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    Stalin was a beast, but

    [ The NKVD placed large heavily-armed formations at the rear of Soviet units to discourage withdrawals and to pick off "stragglers" and "cowards." In a number of instances, NKVD units fought pitched battles with Red Army detachments trying to retreat in the face of superior enemy forces. Stalin continued to purge his armed forces even as the Axis advanced. It is likely that hundreds of thousands of Russians were killed in such actions.

    Makes the draft rather tame eh?[/QUOTE]


    he knew how to win a war, eh? Not unlike your U.S. Grant, whose tactics were appallingly bloody (I won't mention Sherman), but who saved your Union. That the Red Army won the Great Patriotic War cannot be disputed, appalling as the means may well be.

    Not that the Americans and Brits didn't help, mind you. It'd just a fact that the Red Army alone would have won that war. The Americans and Brits alone would not, unless Truman decided to A-bomb Berlin when the time came, and, man, would THAT have been a hard choice. A-bombing slant-eyed Asians is one thing, no big deal, but A-bombing a EUROPEAN capital?

    Talk about a quandry.
    In case you're wondering, my avatar is a photo of a worker in chains, rising up to cast them off. An old piece of IWW (Wobbly) art.

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    You'll get no argument from me that the Red Army was a decisive factor if not THE decisive factor in Germany's defeat. Yet I find it ironic that the Red Army as we once knew it, is gone... without firing a single shot in its defense. Stalin's Russia is gone,... yet Britian and the U.S. still exist. Even Germay survived to become united again.

    Just who vanquished who?

    Also with regards to your comment about A-bombing a euro city.... you don't have to if you use enough fire-bombs... just ask the citizens of Dresden. Its truely horrific what one man can do to another.

    "I know indeed what evil I intend to do, but stronger than all my afterthoughts is my fury,
    fury that brings upon mortals the greatest evils."

    Euripides

  17. #17
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    Red face Suuuuure

    Quote Originally Posted by RedMenace
    [ The NKVD placed large heavily-armed formations at the rear of Soviet units to discourage withdrawals and to pick off "stragglers" and "cowards." In a number of instances, NKVD units fought pitched battles with Red Army detachments trying to retreat in the face of superior enemy forces. Stalin continued to purge his armed forces even as the Axis advanced. It is likely that hundreds of thousands of Russians were killed in such actions.

    Makes the draft rather tame eh?

    he knew how to win a war, eh? Not unlike your U.S. Grant, whose tactics were appallingly bloody (I won't mention Sherman), but who saved your Union. That the Red Army won the Great Patriotic War cannot be disputed, appalling as the means may well be.

    Not that the Americans and Brits didn't help, mind you. It'd just a fact that the Red Army alone would have won that war. The Americans and Brits alone would not, unless Truman decided to A-bomb Berlin when the time came, and, man, would THAT have been a hard choice. A-bombing slant-eyed Asians is one thing, no big deal, but A-bombing a EUROPEAN capital?

    Talk about a quandry.[/QUOTE]

    We did not have the time or need to bomb a Euro capital. The two devices were all we had at the time of the drop on Japan. Most of the European theater was clear.

    Except later after the war by 1947 , as noted by G Kennan, "Look out for Vietnam". Another GIFT from the ever grateful French..Cooperation with fascists and a sh!tty war!

    Sherman was a manic depressive, in all honesty, he should not have been in the war, but he did what every great military leader should do, put absolute fear and terror in the heart of your enemy. People literally shat themselves when they knew Sherman was on the way. Good.

    Grants tactics were (in comparison to Sherman) nothing near bloody. Uncle Joe gave Germany Poland long enough to build his forces which by the way, The Soviet s had alot of. They did not need raw material, they had the ore, the oil and oh yes, the spies they needed. They could have won solo, in 10+ years. BUT, the argument is sound that the Japanese would have started in on the take and sorry, that would have been ta ta to the great Russian forces.

    D day was needed and delayed. Yes, Uncle Joe did not like that, but so what? He was as noted killing his own people. Did you also consider this tiny group of people called the CHINESE who also might sensed weakness in the Soviets and also, would have taken advantage had we and the brits put their hats in the ring. Of course not. That would actually mean that Manchuria never happened and oh yes, the Japanese and Chinese would have hugged each other in their love and mutual admiration for one abother. Despite their centuries old burning hatred of one another.

    Eurto centrism was OK until about 1909. Time to read more books.

  18. #18
    AIE
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    Hmmm

    It might of been a great blunder, but Eastern Europe was the goal. Land (Poland, Ukraine, Russia, etc.) and oil (Azerbijan and Romania) for the Reich. Hitler wanted a Germanic society to dominate and replace the Slavs and Jews. Western Europe had to be engaged to gain this goal, but Western Europe was not the goal.

    Alex

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