Do the needs of the many outweigh the the needs of the few, or the one?
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  1. #1
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    Do the needs of the many outweigh the the needs of the few, or the one?

    Well, do they, Spock?

    Does the idea of good for the community as a whole outweigh the idea of good for the individual?

    At what point does the individual become more important than the community he or she is a part of?

    At what point do the rights of the community infringe on the rights of the individual?

    Can we talk about this without resorting to name calling?

  2. #2
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    The problem I have is the part of the "many'' sitting on their porch all day sippin a 40 collecting welfare with a Range Rover in their driveway with 20s on it while I work and pay taxes...........
    ....work is something I'm forced to do between riding and fishing

  3. #3
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    Wow. Thread trashed in one.

    Can anyone else help pull this out or should we just lock it now before it gets out of hand?

  4. #4
    Opus was just napping
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage
    Wow. Thread trashed in one.

    Can anyone else help pull this out or should we just lock it now before it gets out of hand?
    Nope, cannot help you out, the bigoted stereotypes are pretty much lying about everywhere.

    But hey, John Stuart Mill or John Locke's second treaty on government was never going to get the hits kneejerking mindless bigotry does.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    Nope, cannot help you out, the bigoted stereotypes are pretty much lying about everywhere.

    But hey, John Stuart Mill or John Locke's second treaty on government was never going to get the hits kneejerking mindless bigotry does.
    'Cause we all know that sh!t don't actually happen.

  6. #6
    Opus was just napping
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    'Cause we all know that sh!t don't actually happen.
    And another thing that we differ on...sterotyped bigotry as comedy.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

  7. #7
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    ooh.....

    Quote Originally Posted by ridenfish39
    The problem I have is the part of the "many'' sitting on their porch all day sippin a 40 collecting welfare with a Range Rover in their driveway with 20s on it while I work and pay taxes...........
    poor you....

    everyone, look, its a pity party!!!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by thatsmybush
    And another thing that we differ on...sterotyped bigotry as comedy.
    One of the many things I admire about you.

  9. #9
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    The need of the many over the needs of the individual is Democracy and what the founder fathers feared. That is why they wanted a Republic not a Democracy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

    The spirit of individualism is at the foundation of the US. We have lost it the past 100 years.

    Far reaching collectivism in the end will always infringe on the rights of the individual. My right not to participate in Social Security, my right not to participate in Medicare are gone at the expense of collectivism. My right to own a toilet that will flush with one flush have been trumped by the EPA.

    Collectivism will lead to more and more control of the people by government. Mass transit for example is collectivism. It is easier to control people and their habits when you control their movement. Where to live, where to work etc, it’s a loss of free will.

    Collective ideas, in my opinion, should create some order, to protect me and my property, but not hinder my rights to do what I want as long as I don’t hurt someone else. Clean water & food good. Social Security & Medicare, bad.

    It’s scary to think of a place where the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the individual. What if 51% of the people in your neighborhood vote to tear down your house and build a park? Your rights have suffered due to the 51%.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ridenfish39
    The problem I have is the part of the "many'' sitting on their porch all day sippin a 40 collecting welfare with a Range Rover in their driveway with 20s on it while I work and pay taxes...........
    And still, you'd rather be you than them.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

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  11. #11
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    "They" can get an education, learn a trade, etc..........JUST LIKE I DID!
    How the hell am I bigoted? I just call it like I see it and the truth hurts.
    I see it every day in Philly, people mooching off the system and popping out more babies so they can get more money from the gubbermint.
    ....work is something I'm forced to do between riding and fishing

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith
    The need of the many over the needs of the individual is Democracy and what the founder fathers feared. That is why they wanted a Republic not a Democracy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

    The spirit of individualism is at the foundation of the US. We have lost it the past 100 years.

    Far reaching collectivism in the end will always infringe on the rights of the individual. My right not to participate in Social Security, my right not to participate in Medicare are gone at the expense of collectivism. My right to own a toilet that will flush with one flush have been trumped by the EPA.

    Collectivism will lead to more and more control of the people by government. Mass transit for example is collectivism. It is easier to control people and their habits when you control their movement. Where to live, where to work etc, itís a loss of free will.

    Collective ideas, in my opinion, should create some order, to protect me and my property, but not hinder my rights to do what I want as long as I donít hurt someone else. Clean water & food good. Social Security & Medicare, bad.

    Itís scary to think of a place where the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the individual. What if 51% of the people in your neighborhood vote to tear down your house and build a park? Your rights have suffered due to the 51%.
    Speaking of one flush toilets, have you seen those with the presurized tank? Sounds like a jet taking off, scares the hell out of the flusher and causes a surge of air and mist to rush out at you. Beastly thing but I think it only uses like a half cup of water. The whales are smiling.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mel Erickson
    And still, you'd rather be you than them.
    Terrible character flaw, that.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage
    Well, do they, Spock?

    Does the idea of good for the community as a whole outweigh the idea of good for the individual?

    At what point does the individual become more important than the community he or she is a part of?

    At what point do the rights of the community infringe on the rights of the individual?

    Can we talk about this without resorting to name calling?
    The Public Trust Doctrine is at the core of the matter. We, the people, entrusted the sovereign to protect the people's property.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    Speaking of one flush toilets, have you seen those with the presurized tank? Sounds like a jet taking off, scares the hell out of the flusher and causes a surge of air and mist to rush out at you. Beastly thing but I think it only uses like a half cup of water. The whales are smiling.

    I'd like to find Al Bundy's toilet, the Ferguson

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL2YRDzpTL4

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith
    The need of the many over the needs of the individual is Democracy and what the founder fathers feared. That is why they wanted a Republic not a Democracy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFXuGIpsdE0

    The spirit of individualism is at the foundation of the US. We have lost it the past 100 years.

    Far reaching collectivism in the end will always infringe on the rights of the individual. My right not to participate in Social Security, my right not to participate in Medicare are gone at the expense of collectivism. My right to own a toilet that will flush with one flush have been trumped by the EPA.

    Collectivism will lead to more and more control of the people by government. Mass transit for example is collectivism. It is easier to control people and their habits when you control their movement. Where to live, where to work etc, itís a loss of free will.

    Collective ideas, in my opinion, should create some order, to protect me and my property, but not hinder my rights to do what I want as long as I donít hurt someone else. Clean water & food good. Social Security & Medicare, bad.

    Itís scary to think of a place where the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the individual. What if 51% of the people in your neighborhood vote to tear down your house and build a park? Your rights have suffered due to the 51%.
    You've somehow equated democracy with collectivism.

    And I noticed you want clean water, but complain about low-flow toilets.*

    [*Get a Toto. They rule.]

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith
    Itís scary to think of a place where the needs of the community outweigh the needs of the individual. What if 51% of the people in your neighborhood vote to tear down your house and build a park? Your rights have suffered due to the 51%.
    What if your house is a crack house? Then it doesn't seem so bad.

    It's written into the Constitution that your property cannot be taken without compensation. So if the people vote to take your house, it means they have to pay you for it. You may suffer for whatever reason, but you won't walk away with nothing.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by mohair_chair
    What if your house is a crack house? Then it doesn't seem so bad.

    It's written into the Constitution that your property cannot be taken without compensation. So if the people vote to take your house, it means they have to pay you for it. You may suffer for whatever reason, but you won't walk away with nothing.
    What if it was this house?
    Mike

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  19. #19
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    joe
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl
    You've somehow equated democracy with collectivism.
    Cause it is..............

    Quote Originally Posted by xxl
    And I noticed you want clean water, but complain about low-flow toilets.*

    How is quality of water and quanity of water related?

    But, it should be my right to pay a massive water bill. Besides I have to double flush most of the time any way.

  21. #21
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    For the good of the many, this thread needs to be aborted.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



  22. #22
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    What about freeways?

    A freeway will be put where it has to go to be the most useful to the most people and if you house or farm is in the way, tough.

    We accept that and we collectively pay for it. Is this socialism?

  23. #23
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    false

    Quote Originally Posted by Lotophage
    Does the idea of good for the community as a whole outweigh the idea of good for the individual?

    At what point does the individual become more important than the community he or she is a part of?

    At what point do the rights of the community infringe on the rights of the individual?
    First of all, it's a bit of a false dichotomy. Most of the time, the needs of the few and the many can both be respected, or at least balanced. But, sometimes the needs of the one are paramont. Put someone on trial for murder, and his rights to due process and fair trial are all that matters. On the other hand, if the country is being invaded, then the whole of society is jeopardized, and we may call upon a few to sacrifice to save the many. A witty saying doesn't resolve these issues.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Before I laugh and act like a fool

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith
    Cause it is..............




    How is quality of water and quanity of water related?

    But, it should be my right to pay a massive water bill. Besides I have to double flush most of the time any way.
    Explained here in SCOTUS decision that O'Connor authored --- Jefferson County PUC #1 v. Washington. Very clear explanation.

    http://ncseonline.org/nle/crsreports/water/h2o-7.cfm

  25. #25
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith
    Cause it is..............




    How is quality of water and quanity of water related?

    But, it should be my right to pay a massive water bill. Besides I have to double flush most of the time any way.

    No, it's not, at least in the way that most of the planet defines "democracy" and "collectivism." Heck, we even fought a Cold War over it, sort of. You're conflating representative political systems with economic ones.

    Either that, or those commie bastards at the GOP HQ have inadvertently shown their collectivist stripes, with this quote pulled from their website:


    ďThe right of political parties to express their membersí views about their candidates for office while also working directly with those candidates to help elect them is crucial to a healthy democracy."


    That quote was from Michael Steele, ex-boss of the RNC. Maybe his views are why he got the axe, except it seems like the GOP is pushing democracy everywhere; their party platform singles out (with a big overquote and everything) how we need to support Israel because it's the only thriving democracy in the Middle East. And Israel, democratic thriving aside, actually has collective farms.



    Read more: http://www.gop.com/index.php/news/co...#ixzz1I1RngMDx





    Read still more: http://www.gop.com/Search/search_pag...-8&q=democracy

    I trust troutmd's link to Jefferson County PUC v. Washington clarified for you the relationship between water quality, and quantity. But why do you think you have the right to run up a massive water bill? I don't see that one mentioned anywhere in the Constitution....

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