Extreme abortion laws - Page 10
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  1. #226
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    Quote Originally Posted by fishtanker View Post
    NYS is not a small percentage of people.
    You didn't actually read what was written, did you?

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Riders View Post
    What helpful advice can a doctor give, as opposed to medical information.

    Helpful advice can be given by a neighbor, the postman or woman, the checkout person at the grocery store, etc.

    The decision to have an abortion is seldom a medical decision. Last I heard, and this was yesterday from the President of Emily's List, was about 2%.
    So you really think the postman or grocery store checkout person knows as much as a doctor about having an abortion? If so, I think you're kind of dumb.

    An abortion is a medical procedure. How is it not?
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  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    None of this post has anything to do with what I said. I stated:

    Originally Posted by davesupra
    Half the nation thinks abortion is a right, the other half thinks it's murder"

    Which is 100% correct according to polling. Well, 48% vs 48% if you want to pick pepper out of fly sh*t.

    "Pro-choice" "Pro-life" No opinion* Number of interviews
    % % % n
    U.S. adults 48 48 5 1,024


    You seem to want to pretend that I said something about first trimester abortions.
    Well you can't have a murder if you don't have a live person. Take your maternal grandmother for example. Even she had evidence she was alive before she died and got a death certificate. You know, something from the list I provided you, like a drivers license, or marriage certificate.

    You seem to pretend proving life is not necessary to be pro-life.
    Last edited by troutmd; 1 Day Ago at 10:23 PM.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Riders View Post
    What helpful advice can a doctor give, as opposed to medical information.
    Perhaps a sonogram so you pro-life types can claim a fetus has become a self-sustaining person.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  5. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Perhaps a sonogram so you pro-life types can claim a fetus has become a self-sustaining person.
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    "The American people elected Donald Trump as the President of the United States, and not Hillary. I don't think the left is taking this loss as well as they could have"...

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    Like an unborn fetus?
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    Seriously? Fetal viability is a key part of Roe and Casey. The jihadis who passed the Alabama law want to eliminate it altogether.
    "If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.”

    -Robert Mueller

  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Riders View Post
    The implication has been that the decision on abortion is between a woman and her doctor. Actually, some have stated that position quite clearly.

    But there is a difference between a doctor, PA, or other medical professional doing an ultrasound to provide information and a woman consulting with her doctor on whether or not to have an abortion.

    Some contend, and I am one of them, that if the woman expects to get child support for 18 years, intends to give a baby up for adoption, have an abortion, etc. she should consult with the child's father.

    If the father agrees to raise the child an abortion should be off the table, except in cases regarding the high risk of death to the mother. In cases of forcible rape, the father forfeits his rights and must be prosecuted.
    Just because the "father" invests 2 minutes of sport doesn't give him the right to decide whether the woman can have an abortion or not. When the father carries the pregnancy and delivers the baby, then he gets a voice in the decision. This whole idea that anyone beside the pregnant woman having a voice in the matter can only be about one person having control over another. That's antithetical to the entire concept of freedom.

  9. #234
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    So you really think the postman or grocery store checkout person knows as much as a doctor about having an abortion? If so, I think you're kind of dumb.

    An abortion is a medical procedure. How is it not?
    You missed the point. An abortion is actually a fairly simple procedure. Look it up, yourself.

    Most abortions are performed on healthy women who have no obvious medical complication.

    Doctors have no better advice to give to healthy women considering abortion than anyone else.

    They can describe the procedure but this is simply providing information.

    I believe the problem here is one of definition. There is a difference between advice and information.

    I'll not bother providing the definitions.

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Riders View Post
    You missed the point. An abortion is actually a fairly simple procedure when perform by a license physician in a hospital.
    Fix it for ya brother.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve98501 View Post
    Just because the "father" invests 2 minutes of sport doesn't give him the right to decide whether the woman can have an abortion or not. When the father carries the pregnancy and delivers the baby, then he gets a voice in the decision. This whole idea that anyone beside the pregnant woman having a voice in the matter can only be about one person having control over another. That's antithetical to the entire concept of freedom.
    What you say might be true if the father wasn't going to be on the hook for child support for 18 years.

    Giving the mother control over a man's income for 18 years is taking away a large amount of freedom over 2 minutes of 'sport'. Especially since she can always take him back into court to argue for more.

    Your argument would have more weight if it was about authority and responsibility than some ill defined concept of 'freedom'.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Like an unborn fetus?
    Like a pre-mature fetus pulled out of the mother by c-section due to medical reasons and placed on life support?
    Last edited by davesupra; 21 Hours Ago at 11:27 AM.
    "The American people elected Donald Trump as the President of the United States, and not Hillary. I don't think the left is taking this loss as well as they could have"...

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    Like a fetus pulled out of the mother by c-section due to medical reasons and placed on life support?
    A fetus to "pulled out" by c-section in the first 21 weeks cannot survive. 99% of abortions are in the first 21 weeks.

    What is your point?
    "If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.”

    -Robert Mueller

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    A fetus to "pulled out" by c-section in the first 21 weeks cannot survive. 99% of abortions are in the first 21 weeks. What is your point?
    This was my point.

    Originally Posted by davesupra
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    "The American people elected Donald Trump as the President of the United States, and not Hillary. I don't think the left is taking this loss as well as they could have"...

  15. #240
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    This was my point.

    Originally Posted by davesupra
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    Do you read your own posts? If you did you would see that you did not make a point but asked a question.

    So I will ask again, what is your point? Equating a premature baby on life support with a fetus that is aborted shows you have a limited understanding of this topic.
    Last edited by Doctor Falsetti; 20 Hours Ago at 12:56 PM.
    "If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.”

    -Robert Mueller

  16. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    This was my point.

    Originally Posted by davesupra
    What does "self-sustaining" have to do with anything? If someone isn't self-sustaining, they aren't a person?
    The terms that are relevant are "viable" and "nonviable". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_viability

    "...viability of a fetus means having reached such a stage of development as to be capable of living, under normal conditions, outside the uterus. Viability exists as a function of biomedical and technological capacities, which are different in different parts of the world. As a consequence, there is, at the present time, no worldwide, uniform gestational age that defines viability.

    According to the McGraw-Hill medical dictionary a nonviable fetus is "an expelled or delivered fetus which, although living, cannot possibly survive to the point of sustaining life independently, even with support of the best available medical therapy.""

    Emphasis added.
    .
    Stout beers under trees, please.

  17. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Do you read your own posts? If you did you would see that you did not make a point but asked a question.
    I not only read them, I also type them. I'm sure that's an amazing revelation to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    So I will ask again, what is your point? Equating a premature baby on life support with a fetus that is aborted shows you have a limited understanding of this topic.
    This may also be a revelation for you, but questions can be used to make a point. In this case, the point is that whether a baby is self-sustaining or not is irrelevant to whether it should be a "person".
    "The American people elected Donald Trump as the President of the United States, and not Hillary. I don't think the left is taking this loss as well as they could have"...

  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    I not only read them, I also type them. I'm sure that's an amazing revelation to you.



    This may also be a revelation for you, but questions can be used to make a point. In this case, the point is that whether a baby is self-sustaining or not is irrelevant to whether it should be a "person".
    Again, you post makes no sense. A fetus less than 21 weeks is not sustainable at all outside of the mother . Not self-sustaining, not with the aid of any doctors, not with the aid of any magic fairy in the sky. 99% of all abortions are done prior to 21 weeks.

    You are trying to equate a premature baby who can survive outside mother with the help of a doctor with a fetus that cannot survive at all.

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    I not only read them, I also type them. I'm sure that's an amazing revelation to you.



    This may also be a revelation for you, but questions can be used to make a point. In this case, the point is that whether a baby is self-sustaining or not is irrelevant to whether it should be a "person".
    Flip the script and see how many would agree to let children euthanize their aged parents.

    "Gee, I don't see why I should have to take care of these old geezers. They didn't save enough to take care of themselves so why should I get stuck with their care? They'll be a drain on my body for more than 9 months so why shouldn't I be able to 'abort' them? Isn't it a matter of my freedom?"

  20. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    This may also be a revelation for you, but questions can be used to make a point. In this case, the point is that whether a baby is self-sustaining or not is irrelevant to whether it should be a "person".
    Baby: a very young child.
    "his wife's just had a baby"
    synonyms: infant, newborn, child, tot, little one

    *****************

    Words are important things.

    When someone uses the word "Baby" they are discussing an infant outside the mothers womb who customarily have received a birth certificate, hence a person. These qualities being opposed to a fetus inside the womb of which has yet have received a government certification, i.e., a birth certificate, thus granted the legal status of being a living person.

    Mothers generally understand the words of the doctor better then the pronouncements, morality plays and emotionally-charged proclamations of preachers, politicians or partisans. Yet preachers, partisans, and politicians keep injecting themselves upon a woman's freedom to decide what is best for her, her family, and the fertilized embryo she is carrying.
    Last edited by troutmd; 10 Hours Ago at 11:03 PM.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  21. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by Easy Riders View Post
    Flip the script and see how many would agree to let children euthanize their aged parents.

    "Gee, I don't see why I should have to take care of these old geezers. They didn't save enough to take care of themselves so why should I get stuck with their care? They'll be a drain on my body for more than 9 months so why shouldn't I be able to 'abort' them? Isn't it a matter of my freedom?"
    That is not flipping the script that is inventing a strawman that has zero relation to the topic.
    "If we had confidence after a thorough investigation of the facts that the President clearly did not commit obstruction of justice, we would so state. Based on the facts and the applicable legal standards, however, we are unable to reach that judgment.”

    -Robert Mueller

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