Exxon: Was not expecting this...
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  1. #1
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    Exxon: Was not expecting this...

    It's not a lot of rubles, maybe a few seconds of earnings for Exxon, but the boldfaced part is what caught my eye:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-fin...hes-1500570876

    "The Treasury Department imposed a $2 million fine on Exxon Mobil Corp. for what it called a “reckless disregard” of U.S. sanctions on Russia while Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was the oil giant’s chief executive. The company immediately said it would challenge the finding.

    Exxon, under Mr. Tillerson’s helm, in early 2014 deepened the company’s longstanding partnership with the Kremlin despite Washington levying fresh sanctions against Russia for seizing territory in eastern Ukraine. In May 2014, Treasury said the company signed eight documents relating to oil-and-gas projects in Russia that were also signed by Igor Sechin, chief executive of the state oil giant PAO Rosneft. Treasury on Thursday said those deals were violations of U.S. sanctions against Mr. Sechin, a former Russian intelligence officer and top ally to President Vladimir Putin.


    Mr. Tillerson, who has close ties to Russia and received an “Order of Friendship” award from Moscow, left Exxon last year to become U.S. secretary of state. The $2 million fine, Treasury said, was the maximum amount it could levy against the company.


    A spokesman for Exxon called the fine “outrageous” and said Treasury’s findings are a 180-degree turn from previous guidance handed down by the Obama administration at the time the sanctions were enacted."

    [more at article]
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    It's not a lot of rubles, maybe a few seconds of earnings for Exxon, but the boldfaced part is what caught my eye:

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-fin...hes-1500570876

    "The Treasury Department imposed a $2 million fine on Exxon Mobil Corp. for what it called a “reckless disregard” of U.S. sanctions on Russia while Secretary of State Rex Tillerson was the oil giant’s chief executive. The company immediately said it would challenge the finding.

    Exxon, under Mr. Tillerson’s helm, in early 2014 deepened the company’s longstanding partnership with the Kremlin despite Washington levying fresh sanctions against Russia for seizing territory in eastern Ukraine. In May 2014, Treasury said the company signed eight documents relating to oil-and-gas projects in Russia that were also signed by Igor Sechin, chief executive of the state oil giant PAO Rosneft. Treasury on Thursday said those deals were violations of U.S. sanctions against Mr. Sechin, a former Russian intelligence officer and top ally to President Vladimir Putin.


    Mr. Tillerson, who has close ties to Russia and received an “Order of Friendship” award from Moscow, left Exxon last year to become U.S. secretary of state. The $2 million fine, Treasury said, was the maximum amount it could levy against the company.


    A spokesman for Exxon called the fine “outrageous” and said Treasury’s findings are a 180-degree turn from previous guidance handed down by the Obama administration at the time the sanctions were enacted."

    [more at article]
    The fine IS outrageous. Including it in the sanctions is outrageous.

    This story isn't about punishing Vlad for outing opposition journalists, its about developing the huge oil reserves in the Arctic Ocean, already accessible to the technology necessary to extract it.

    Exxon would have been stupid not to get in on the spoils. The long term consequences of the "partnership" far outweigh the political bickering between the US and Russian governments. This is what got us into trouble during the Cold War. What's the point of repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum over moral issues, on which we have proven many times willing to hypocritically overlook governing our own behavior?

    Why do all business transactions between Russia and the US have to be suspect political conspiracies? Typical of the media. Gotta keep 'em on the edge of their seats waiting for the next "shoe to drop."

    I'm still on vacation watching the Tour de France. Wake me up when Mueller issues his report.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The fine IS outrageous. Including it in the sanctions is outrageous.

    This story isn't about punishing Vlad for outing opposition journalists, its about developing the huge oil reserves in the Arctic Ocean, already accessible to the technology necessary to extract it.

    Exxon would have been stupid not to get in on the spoils. The long term consequences of the "partnership" far outweigh the political bickering between the US and Russian governments. This is what got us into trouble during the Cold War. What's the point of repeating the same mistakes ad infinitum over moral issues, on which we have proven many times willing to hypocritically overlook governing our own behavior?

    Why do all business transactions between Russia and the US have to be suspect political conspiracies? Typical of the media. Gotta keep 'em on the edge of their seats waiting for the next "shoe to drop."

    I'm still on vacation watching the Tour de France. Wake me up when Mueller issues his report.
    So, just to be sure I have this straight, you believe EXXON is bigger than the US government.

    The EXXON can choose to ignore the orders of the US government and go about their business however they choose.

    Have I got that right? I find it hard to believe this is what you actually believe but from what I've seen lately, it falls in line with what Trump's 37% of voters believe.

    Now, not only are corporations people, they are bigger than the US government and able to ignore US law.

    Please, please Fred, say it isn't so!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    I'm still on vacation watching the Tour de France. Wake me up when Mueller issues his report.
    Don’t say it if you don’t mean it, ya’ big tease...
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

    I was "social distancing" before it was cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    So, just to be sure I have this straight, you believe EXXON is bigger than the US government.

    The EXXON can choose to ignore the orders of the US government and go about their business however they choose.

    Have I got that right? I find it hard to believe this is what you actually believe but from what I've seen lately, it falls in line with what Trump's 37% of voters believe.

    Now, not only are corporations people, they are bigger than the US government and able to ignore US law.

    Please, please Fred, say it isn't so!
    Anything for a buck. Screw the country, screw the law, screw the people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    So, just to be sure I have this straight, you believe EXXON is bigger than the US government.

    The EXXON can choose to ignore the orders of the US government and go about their business however they choose.

    Have I got that right? I find it hard to believe this is what you actually believe but from what I've seen lately, it falls in line with what Trump's 37% of voters believe.

    Now, not only are corporations people, they are bigger than the US government and able to ignore US law.

    Please, please Fred, say it isn't so!
    The sanctions are leading nowhere but a dangerous deterioration in US-Russia relations. The Arctic Ocean borders Alaska, Canada, and Russia. Working as partners is much preferred over competing for the same resources as hostile rivals.

    Furthermore, the sanctions are targeted against one Russian who had no right to fight back in a court of law. And you talk about respect for rule of law? Is this how we want international respect?

    The fines are a goody two shoes effort by government bureaucrats to punish a big international corporation for thrills. It's counterproductive in the long run, as all sanctions have been in the past.

    Then again, Exxon forking over a couple of $million is chicken feed, so the bureaucrats can get their nut off without doing much damage.

    Exxon lawyers are going to appeal. Gosh, I wonder why?
    Last edited by Fredrico; 07-21-2017 at 12:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The sanctions are leading nowhere but a dangerous deterioration in US-Russia relations. The Arctic Ocean borders Alaska, Canada, and Russia. Working as partners is much preferred over competing for the same resources as hostile rivals.

    Furthermore, the sanctions are targeted against one Russian who had no right to fight back in a court of law. And you talk about respect for rule of law? Is this how we want international respect?

    The fines are a goody two shoes effort by government bureaucrats to punish a big international corporation for thrills. It's counterproductive in the long run, as all sanctions have been in the past.

    Then again, Exxon forking over a couple of $million is chicken feed, so the bureaucrats can get their nut off without doing much damage.

    Exxon lawyers are going to appeal. Gosh, I wonder why?
    If you want to start a new thread as a distraction, do that.

    But you failed to address a single point I raised.

    Since you have no response except BS, I can see why.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    So, just to be sure I have this straight, you believe EXXON is bigger than the US government.

    The EXXON can choose to ignore the orders of the US government and go about their business however they choose.

    Have I got that right? I find it hard to believe this is what you actually believe but from what I've seen lately, it falls in line with what Trump's 37% of voters believe.

    Now, not only are corporations people, they are bigger than the US government and able to ignore US law.

    Please, please Fred, say it isn't so!
    Ok:

    Yeah, Exxon probably IS bigger than the US government. They never run out of gas, man. Always there when I need it, all over the country. Ain't that great? Yes, they can afford to pay the fine and ignore the US government meddling in their business dealings with the Russians.

    The men sitting on top of all that money are operating on a different level than you or me, clawing our way through life trying to survive. Players that big are so influential, so essential for survival, they can't be allowed to fail! To them, civil laws, because that's what they are here, are malleable. They can assess unintended consequence, liability issues, but they rule by agreements, deal making. The laws usually follow.

    Strict adherence is pursued only by the unwashed masses, for the sake of social order. But up there among the world oligarchies, laws are always negotiable to please all players. Lawyers come in to figure out ways to "get past the laws" sometimes necessary to achieve a common goal. Exxon's partnership with the Russian state oil company case in point.

    BTW, the agreements got set up during the Obama administration, so only continued in the Trump administration. Pulling out would be considered breach of contract. So again: big deal.

    That's my answer to your questions.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 07-21-2017 at 05:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Ok:

    Yeah, Exxon probably IS bigger than the US government. They never run out of gas, man. Always there when I need it, all over the country. Ain't that great? Yes, they can afford to pay the fine and ignore the US government meddling in their business dealings with the Russians.

    The men sitting on top of all that money are operating on a different level than you or me, clawing our way through life trying to survive. Players that big are so influential, so essential for survival, they can't be allowed to fail! To them, civil laws, because that's what they are here, are malleable. They can assess unintended consequence, liability issues, but they rule by agreements, deal making. The laws usually follow.

    Strict adherence is pursued only by the unwashed masses, for the sake of social order. But up there among the world oligarchies, laws are always negotiable to please all players. Lawyers come in to figure out ways to "get past the laws" sometimes necessary to achieve a common goal. Exxon's partnership with the Russian state oil company case in point.

    BTW, the agreements got set up during the Obama administration, so only continued in the Trump administration. Pulling out would be considered breach of contract. So again: big deal.

    That's my answer to your questions.
    Are you a conservative or an anarchist? According to you, the rule of law means nothing.

    I'm glad you've stopped even pretending you believe in American values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    Are you a conservative or an anarchist? According to you, the rule of law means nothing.

    I'm glad you've stopped even pretending you believe in American values.
    That's one big assumption there, jim.

    Go team!

    I'm a liberal from way back in '54; voted Democratic my whole lifetime with the exception of '68. I even donated money to the Obama campaign! Figure THAT out!

    Sanctions are about the same as speed limits on highways. Exceeding it will earn you a fine, but it won't brand you a criminal.

    Plus, the sanctions are BS. They mean nothing and have no positive effect on behavior, quite the opposite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    That's one big assumption there, jim.

    Go team!

    I'm a liberal from way back in '54; voted Democratic my whole lifetime with the exception of '68. I even donated money to the Obama campaign! Figure THAT out!
    Nothing to figure out. Only you know the answer for your opinions today. Trump also was a liberal. He previously supported Hillary Clinton. Means nothing. You are judged by your opinions & statements today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    That's one big assumption there, jim.

    Go team!

    I'm a liberal from way back in '54; voted Democratic my whole lifetime with the exception of '68. I even donated money to the Obama campaign! Figure THAT out!

    Sanctions are about the same as speed limits on highways. Exceeding it will earn you a fine, but it won't brand you a criminal.

    Plus, the sanctions are BS. They mean nothing and have no positive effect on behavior, quite the opposite.
    I'm not assuming anything, I'm simply reading your steady diet of pro Trump, pro conservative agenda posts.

    If sanctions have no positive effect on behavior, why are the Russians trying so hard to make them go away?

    Won't brand you a criminal in whose eyes? Yours? Trump's? Exxon's? Putin's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    I'm not assuming anything, I'm simply reading your steady diet of pro Trump, pro conservative agenda posts.

    If sanctions have no positive effect on behavior, why are the Russians trying so hard to make them go away?

    Won't brand you a criminal in whose eyes? Yours? Trump's? Exxon's? Putin's?
    The sanctions are cramping the Russian bankers style financing great projects around the world, making the world great. Trump business interests are directly harmed, so are Exxon's. Lifting sanctions would benefit everyone.

    International relations are ruled by laws, sure, but with heavy doses of what is possible as far as enforcing them. Tariffs, economic sanctions, set up rivalries, hamper the free trade of materials and ideas, and harm the health of the planet's overall population. For that reason, they're easy to justify ignoring, morally speaking.

    When a nation is shut out of international give and take, alienated from the world community, revolutionary groups rise up with a fantasy of a return to a spiritual purity unknown in these high tech, materialistic times. They form groups such as ISIS, and for a while, all hell breaks loose. The challenge is for world leaders to prevent more failed states like Syria.

    American have to stop being so sanctimonious. We've got plenty of blood on our hands, much of it self-inflicted in the Civil War.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The sanctions are cramping the Russian bankers style financing great projects around the world, making the world great. Trump business interests are directly harmed, so are Exxon's. Lifting sanctions would benefit everyone.

    International relations are ruled by laws, sure, but with heavy doses of what is possible as far as enforcing them. Tariffs, economic sanctions, set up rivalries, hamper the free trade of materials and ideas, and harm the health of the planet's overall population. For that reason, they're easy to justify ignoring, morally speaking.

    When a nation is shut out of international give and take, alienated from the world community, revolutionary groups rise up with a fantasy of a return to a spiritual purity unknown in these high tech, materialistic times. They form groups such as ISIS, and for a while, all hell breaks loose. The challenge is for world leaders to prevent more failed states like Syria.

    American have to stop being so sanctimonious. We've got plenty of blood on our hands, much of it self-inflicted in the Civil War.
    Again, you toss out 'Americans' as if the American people are to blame for bloody hands around the world. The 1% have used our military to protect their overseas interests in places like Viet Nam and Iraq. They have manipulated the American people into going along until the people realize they were hoodwinked and then the jig is up. Do you think the American People wanted the Spanish American war? World War I?

    Yet you continually blame the American People.

    Here's another example of your failure to think through your pronouncements. Without sanctions or military options, Russia would have tanks throughout the Ukraine, today. And eyeing all the former Soviet buffer states for similar treatment. Do you think the Crimea was a one time thing? Would the planet benefit from another Soviet Union? I don't think so and don't understand why you do.

    Now lets look at your idea that world leaders should prevent failed states.

    Under this doctrine, you would have troops propping up dictators in "Arab Spring" states. After all, many of these could have wound up as 'failed states'. At the same time many consider Saudi Arabia a 'failed state' as they export terrorism throughout the middle east as does Iran. What do you want 'world leaders' to do in Iran and Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing not sanctions. Military action?

    Your world view espouses a liberal bent from the 50's and 60's that has long been discredited for it's simplistic view of complex problems. It's a lot like communism, sounds good as long as everyone plays nice, but people seldom play nice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    Again, you toss out 'Americans' as if the American people are to blame for bloody hands around the world. The 1% have used our military to protect their overseas interests in places like Viet Nam and Iraq. They have manipulated the American people into going along until the people realize they were hoodwinked and then the jig is up. Do you think the American People wanted the Spanish American war? World War I?

    Yet you continually blame the American People.

    Here's another example of your failure to think through your pronouncements. Without sanctions or military options, Russia would have tanks throughout the Ukraine, today. And eyeing all the former Soviet buffer states for similar treatment. Do you think the Crimea was a one time thing? Would the planet benefit from another Soviet Union? I don't think so and don't understand why you do.

    Now lets look at your idea that world leaders should prevent failed states.

    Under this doctrine, you would have troops propping up dictators in "Arab Spring" states. After all, many of these could have wound up as 'failed states'. At the same time many consider Saudi Arabia a 'failed state' as they export terrorism throughout the middle east as does Iran. What do you want 'world leaders' to do in Iran and Saudi Arabia. I'm guessing not sanctions. Military action?

    Your world view espouses a liberal bent from the 50's and 60's that has long been discredited for it's simplistic view of complex problems. It's a lot like communism, sounds good as long as everyone plays nice, but people seldom play nice.
    Agree fully with your view that wars are created to protect the interests of the 1%. I've said as much meself.

    I blame the American people for backing administrations that tout a strong military defense as keeping abreast of technological advances in warfare and therefore critical to American security, viz. dominance. If we're 7 times stronger than any other power in the world, nobody will [email protected] with us. Oops. Guess not!

    The military option to prevent Russian tanks from rolling into Kiev is NATO. They're in place ready to go. But be realistic. When elements in Ukraine wanted to turn to the west, Russia was very reluctant to lose an old friend. And Crimea is an exception, yes. Its where Russians go on vacation. It was put under Ukrainian jurisdiction when the Soviet Union broke up, for convenience. The expectation was it would continue to be occupied and run for the Russians. When the military coup in Ukraine threatened the situation in Crimea, Putin moved in to correct it. He also, like the US does in the Americas, is trying to rig elections and get friendly governments in power. Too bad they hooked up the that greedy idiot Yanukovich in Ukraine. He fit well into the "Russian mafia," in which Putin is a prime player.

    One Russian activist said tonight when asked why they kill their political opposition, "Because that's how Russians do it!" They've got a history of authoritarian rule. It must be those long, cold winters!

    Saudi Arabia is not a failed state, far from it. Saudis have it made. They're rich across the board. Iran is not a failed state. What are you talking about? US occupation turned Iraq into a failed state, though. So much for the military option in solving complex problems, eh?

    Now please describe this "liberal bent from the 50's and 60's" you're talking about. One thing we learned: the Soviet Union stopped trying to spread communism by conquest after about 1953, and a scant generation later, dissolved into capitalist states with socialist governments. The arms race drew it out a good 20 years, and the US had nothing to do with the Soviets people deciding for themselves to change their system. They did it without firing a shot. I'd call that extraordinary in light of how we felt about the Russians then and still do.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 07-23-2017 at 07:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Agree fully with your view that wars are created to protect the interests of the 1%. I've said as much meself.

    I blame the American people for backing administrations that tout a strong military defense as keeping abreast of technological advances in warfare and therefore critical to American security, viz. dominance. If we're 7 times stronger than any other power in the world, nobody will [email protected] with us. Oops. Guess not!

    The military option to prevent Russian tanks from rolling into Kiev is NATO. They're in place ready to go. But be realistic. When elements in Ukraine wanted to turn to the west, Russia was very reluctant to lose an old friend. And Crimea is an exception, yes. Its where Russians go on vacation. It was put under Ukrainian jurisdiction when the Soviet Union broke up, for convenience. The expectation was it would continue to be occupied and run for the Russians. When the military coup in Ukraine threatened the situation in Crimea, Putin moved in to correct it. He also, like the US does in the Americas, is trying to rig elections and get friendly governments in power. Too bad they hooked up the that greedy idiot Yanukovich in Ukraine. He fit well into the "Russian mafia," in which Putin is a prime player.

    One Russian activist said tonight when asked why they kill their political opposition, "Because that's how Russians do it!" They've got a history of authoritarian rule. It must be those long, cold winters!

    Saudi Arabia is not a failed state, far from it. Saudis have it made. They're rich across the board. Iran is not a failed state. What are you talking about? US occupation turned Iraq into a failed state, though. So much for the military option in solving complex problems, eh?

    Now please describe this "liberal bent from the 50's and 60's" you're talking about. One thing we learned: the Soviet Union stopped trying to spread communism by conquest after about 1953, and a scant generation later, dissolved into capitalist states with socialist governments. The arms race drew it out a good 20 years, and the US had nothing to do with the Soviets people deciding for themselves to change their system. They did it without firing a shot. I'd call that extraordinary in light of how we felt about the Russians then and still do.
    You were the one who said failed states export terrorism. Both Saudi Arabia and Iran export terrorism. In fact they are the largest exporters of terrorism in the world.

    How do you square what you wrote with the facts?

    Are you saying that because a "Russian Activist" justified killing the political opposition its no big deal? Just who was this person and what constitutes a 'Russian Activist'.

    Now for the big history lesson you must have missed somewhere along the line.

    The seeds of WWII were sewn at the end of WWI. The Germans were economically castrated but France and England looked inward as the depression worsened. The lack of oversight allowed Germany to rebuild its military.

    After WWII the United States implemented 2 important policies. First, the Marshall Plan was instituted to minimize the economic justifications for war. The US would help rebuild both its allies and Germany, Italy and Japan.

    Second, as the only world power with factories intact and able to afford to maintain an army, navy and air force, along with the atom bomb, the US would use its military to address security issues around the world and become a bastion against communism, or at least the form of communism practiced in Russia and China.

    The 20th Century was a test of political and economic organization for all humankind. First, the monarchies in Europe, then, the Russian Revolution, then the Spanish Civil, then Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, the Generals in Japan. Dictatorship vs Democracy, Communism vs Capitalism.

    Capitalism certainly won but the challenge of the early 21 Century is end stage capitalism where more and more wealth is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands.

    Most people don't get it because money buys elections and even Bernie couldn't 'tell it like it is" in plain terms because it takes so much money to run a campaign and if you threaten the 1% they will bury you in TV ads and opposition research.

    And the liberal bent is this: liberals used to believe, in their own elitist way, that if only you could educate people they would see the light and behave in a way that provides the greatest good for all concerned. That is BS. There are lots of people who are greedy beyond all need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    You were the one who said failed states export terrorism. Both Saudi Arabia and Iran export terrorism. In fact they are the largest exporters of terrorism in the world.

    How do you square what you wrote with the facts?

    Are you saying that because a "Russian Activist" justified killing the political opposition its no big deal? Just who was this person and what constitutes a 'Russian Activist'.

    Now for the big history lesson you must have missed somewhere along the line.

    The seeds of WWII were sewn at the end of WWI. The Germans were economically castrated but France and England looked inward as the depression worsened. The lack of oversight allowed Germany to rebuild its military.

    After WWII the United States implemented 2 important policies. First, the Marshall Plan was instituted to minimize the economic justifications for war. The US would help rebuild both its allies and Germany, Italy and Japan.

    Second, as the only world power with factories intact and able to afford to maintain an army, navy and air force, along with the atom bomb, the US would use its military to address security issues around the world and become a bastion against communism, or at least the form of communism practiced in Russia and China.

    The 20th Century was a test of political and economic organization for all humankind. First, the monarchies in Europe, then, the Russian Revolution, then the Spanish Civil, then Mussolini in Italy, Hitler in Germany, the Generals in Japan. Dictatorship vs Democracy, Communism vs Capitalism.

    Capitalism certainly won but the challenge of the early 21 Century is end stage capitalism where more and more wealth is concentrated into fewer and fewer hands.

    Most people don't get it because money buys elections and even Bernie couldn't 'tell it like it is" in plain terms because it takes so much money to run a campaign and if you threaten the 1% they will bury you in TV ads and opposition research.

    And the liberal bent is this: liberals used to believe, in their own elitist way, that if only you could educate people they would see the light and behave in a way that provides the greatest good for all concerned. That is BS. There are lots of people who are greedy beyond all need.
    Well, I was referring to Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan as failed states that spawn terrorism, like ISIS, AQ, the Taliban. And I'd say the Saudi govt. never had an agenda exporting terrorism throughout the ME, nor did Iran. True, Saudi citizens may have supported terrorists. And Iran is supporting Shiite groups, looking out for their own primarily in a defensive posture against the Sunnis, [SA], and the US.

    Education makes a huge difference on how people choose to be governed. Ignorant people go by the authority of their leaders and follow without question. Whereas educated people think about political issues and participate in the political process in more detail, and are willing to make changes. Liberals drove the civil rights movement, nuke disarmament, ending apartheid in South Africa, and setting up government health care and retirement policies. They believe in the UN and aren't quick to pick up their guns when there's trouble.

    So yeah, and educated population is a smart population less vulnerable to be snookered in by some demagogue bent on authoritarian rule and restricting civil liberties. I mean, just look at the hotbed of radical thought going on in the universities!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Well, I was referring to Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan as failed states that spawn terrorism, like ISIS, AQ, the Taliban. And I'd say the Saudi govt. never had an agenda exporting terrorism throughout the ME, nor did Iran. True, Saudi citizens may have supported terrorists. And Iran is supporting Shiite groups, looking out for their own primarily in a defensive posture against the Sunnis, [SA], and the US.

    Education makes a huge difference on how people choose to be governed. Ignorant people go by the authority of their leaders and follow without question. Whereas educated people think about political issues and participate in the political process in more detail, and are willing to make changes. Liberals drove the civil rights movement, nuke disarmament, ending apartheid in South Africa, and setting up government health care and retirement policies. They believe in the UN and aren't quick to pick up their guns when there's trouble.

    So yeah, and educated population is a smart population less vulnerable to be snookered in by some demagogue bent on authoritarian rule and restricting civil liberties. I mean, just look at the hotbed of radical thought going on in the universities!
    The Saudi govt is a state sponsor of Wahhabism, Iran funds Hezbollah and the militants in Gaza. Update your terrorism IQ accordingly.

    They have lots of schools in the south. Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, etc.

    Your problem is the same old liberal problem. You don't know anyone who isn't an educated liberal. You think everyone is like the people you associate with. Universities are full of educated liberals. But educated people elected Trump. He got 60 million votes. 54% of white women voted for Trump. Almost all suburban counties in the south went for Trump.

    Clearly, education is not the great emancipator. By human nature, there are cooperative people and there are greedy people. The greedy don't get less greedy through education.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    The Saudi govt is a state sponsor of Wahhabism, Iran funds Hezbollah and the militants in Gaza. Update your terrorism IQ accordingly.

    They have lots of schools in the south. Florida, Georgia, Arkansas, Kansas, Louisiana, etc.

    Your problem is the same old liberal problem. You don't know anyone who isn't an educated liberal. You think everyone is like the people you associate with. Universities are full of educated liberals. But educated people elected Trump. He got 60 million votes. 54% of white women voted for Trump. Almost all suburban counties in the south went for Trump.

    Clearly, education is not the great emancipator. By human nature, there are cooperative people and there are greedy people. The greedy don't get less greedy through education.
    Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon. They were in power for several terms a few years ago. They have a legitimate following among the more dispossessed Lebanese and they seek financial aid from the Iranians. Hamas is the dominant political party in Gaza, and they're being starved out by the IDF.

    We did the same with Pinochet in Chile and Iran-Contra. So why wag our fingers when someone else does it? So what? It's international politics and its gets as corrupt as hell.

    Wahabism to the Saudis is probably like Southern Baptist is to the Texans, the conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical arm of the Islam religion. SA would have the respect of the Vatican in the Muslim world. They're living on the hallowed ground of Mohammed himself.

    So are we surprised when radicals like this rich kid Osama bin Laden step up and go jihad on the spiritually corrupting status quo? They've been cutting back on their support of Sunni terrorist groups, but don't forget they have obligations in Syria and Yemen that they rightfully honor.

    Lived in ETX in the 90s. Worked in a TV station, a bike shop, a charitable organization, the BBB, the US Census, so got around and met a wide cross section of society. They liked Judge Louis Gohmert for his straight forward, down home style. He speaks for them like a brother. There was lots of tribal unity built on cultural, moral assumptions that didn't have to be stated, but you got in trouble if you deviated a hair from their strange list of do's and don't's.

    They got nervous when the visuals stole the newscast. I always found that curious that they were working in a visual medium but were so afraid to communicate visually! The ladies running the historical society were the same. They were entombed with their objects of the past, such was their town, once a thriving economy back in the oil boom of the Thirties, now medical communities serving retirees, perhaps the perfect market down there.

    Its a nice place but young people strike their fortunes elsewhere, so nothing much is ever going on. The Mexican restaurants are second to none.

    So ok, authoritarians may be educated, but it doesn't spill over into their thinking on political, religious or social issues.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    Hezbollah is a political party in Lebanon. They were in power for several terms a few years ago. They have a legitimate following among the more dispossessed Lebanese and they seek financial aid from the Iranians. Hamas is the dominant political party in Gaza, and they're being starved out by the IDF.

    We did the same with Pinochet in Chile and Iran-Contra. So why wag our fingers when someone else does it? So what? It's international politics and its gets as corrupt as hell.

    Wahabism to the Saudis is probably like Southern Baptist is to the Texans, the conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical arm of the Islam religion. SA would have the respect of the Vatican in the Muslim world. They're living on the hallowed ground of Mohammed himself.

    So are we surprised when radicals like this rich kid Osama bin Laden step up and go jihad on the spiritually corrupting status quo? They've been cutting back on their support of Sunni terrorist groups, but don't forget they have obligations in Syria and Yemen that they rightfully honor.

    Lived in ETX in the 90s. Worked in a TV station, a bike shop, a charitable organization, the BBB, the US Census, so got around and met a wide cross section of society. They liked Judge Louis Gohmert for his straight forward, down home style. He speaks for them like a brother. There was lots of tribal unity built on cultural, moral assumptions that didn't have to be stated, but you got in trouble if you deviated a hair from their strange list of do's and don't's.

    They got nervous when the visuals stole the newscast. I always found that curious that they were working in a visual medium but were so afraid to communicate visually! The ladies running the historical society were the same. They were entombed with their objects of the past, such was their town, once a thriving economy back in the oil boom of the Thirties, now medical communities serving retirees, perhaps the perfect market down there.

    Its a nice place but young people strike their fortunes elsewhere, so nothing much is ever going on. The Mexican restaurants are second to none.

    So ok, authoritarians may be educated, but it doesn't spill over into their thinking on political, religious or social issues.
    Same old BS, we did it in Chile so everyone should be doing it.

    Are Southern Baptists supplying weapons to anyone? Don't think so.

    Sorry, if you think the places you worked are a broad cross section of America you have led a sheltered life.

    You missed the point, authoritarians are who they are regardless of education. Its who they are.

    And frankly, I could care less about repressive, dust bowl, society. I enjoyed one thing about the 50s and 60s, stupid people knew enough to keep quiet. Republicans encouraged the stupid to embrace dumb ideas and Republican's continually lie by agreeing with them to get their vote.

    Like Trump said, 'I love the uneducated.' The part he left out is 'because they are easier to fool'.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jimb100 View Post
    Same old BS, we did it in Chile so everyone should be doing it.

    Are Southern Baptists supplying weapons to anyone? Don't think so.

    Sorry, if you think the places you worked are a broad cross section of America you have led a sheltered life.

    You missed the point, authoritarians are who they are regardless of education. Its who they are.

    And frankly, I could care less about repressive, dust bowl, society. I enjoyed one thing about the 50s and 60s, stupid people knew enough to keep quiet. Republicans encouraged the stupid to embrace dumb ideas and Republican's continually lie by agreeing with them to get their vote.

    Like Trump said, 'I love the uneducated.' The part he left out is 'because they are easier to fool'.
    You said it better than I could!

    An ETX employer once told me, "You think too much! Just do what I say!"

    Well, those militias training on the deer leases are tight out of evangelicals, most of 'em Southern Baptists. The overwhelming majority are nice people, but so were the Nazis if you met them in a social setting.

    I don't agree with you that authoritarians are genetically programmed regardless of education, to be that way. The more someone knows, the less he'll fashion all the pieces of the puzzle so they fit neatly together. He'll accept conflict as an essential part of life, and life is always on the move. The intelligent adapt. The ignorant die off.

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