I am fine with $3.00, 4.00, 5.00, 6.00 + for gas...
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  1. #1
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    I am fine with $3.00, 4.00, 5.00, 6.00 + for gas...

    Let's just go ahead and raise it thru the roof. I don't care. 5.00? Bring it. 6.00? Not flinching. RAISE IT ON UP.

    Here's my reason: I may have to pay more energy, so I'll make concessions everywhere else. Less spent on groceries. Grocery prices may go up, so I'll buy less items. Clothing? I'll take the 10 year old jeans and shirts I have now, and keep on wearin' em. Other consumer goods? If I need it, I'll buy less of it...

    See where I'm going? If other Americans do as I have to, then there won't be a need for a Wal-Mart every 2 miles. We won't need a Target on every corner. JCPenney? Sears? Those stores will be out of business and closing forever in 1-2 years after peak gas prices. It's going to be very tough on the US economy if John and Jane Smith cut their driving down to just the minimum, and still, they are pinched due to high gas prices. I don't think the folks in control want runaway inflation, or worse, stag-flation, in this country.

    Doesn't bode well for 2008 if you're an incumbent.....

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashpelham
    Let's just go ahead and raise it thru the roof. I don't care. 5.00? Bring it. 6.00? Not flinching. RAISE IT ON UP.

    Here's my reason: I may have to pay more energy, so I'll make concessions everywhere else. Less spent on groceries. Grocery prices may go up, so I'll buy less items. Clothing? I'll take the 10 year old jeans and shirts I have now, and keep on wearin' em. Other consumer goods? If I need it, I'll buy less of it...

    See where I'm going? If other Americans do as I have to, then there won't be a need for a Wal-Mart every 2 miles. We won't need a Target on every corner. JCPenney? Sears? Those stores will be out of business and closing forever in 1-2 years after peak gas prices. It's going to be very tough on the US economy if John and Jane Smith cut their driving down to just the minimum, and still, they are pinched due to high gas prices. I don't think the folks in control want runaway inflation, or worse, stag-flation, in this country.

    Doesn't bode well for 2008 if you're an incumbent.....
    It isn't going that high in the near future. We are passing through the pissing and moaning level and reaching uncharted economic pressure. When it stalls the economy, Democrats will nationalize the industry and we'll have Venezuelan prices.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashpelham
    Let's just go ahead and raise it thru the roof. I don't care. 5.00? Bring it. 6.00? Not flinching. RAISE IT ON UP.

    Here's my reason: I may have to pay more energy, so I'll make concessions everywhere else. Less spent on groceries. Grocery prices may go up, so I'll buy less items. Clothing? I'll take the 10 year old jeans and shirts I have now, and keep on wearin' em. Other consumer goods? If I need it, I'll buy less of it...

    See where I'm going? If other Americans do as I have to, then there won't be a need for a Wal-Mart every 2 miles. We won't need a Target on every corner. JCPenney? Sears? Those stores will be out of business and closing forever in 1-2 years after peak gas prices. It's going to be very tough on the US economy if John and Jane Smith cut their driving down to just the minimum, and still, they are pinched due to high gas prices. I don't think the folks in control want runaway inflation, or worse, stag-flation, in this country.

    Doesn't bode well for 2008 if you're an incumbent.....

    As gas prices rise, so does the price of every other product that depends on any sort of physical transportation. A unilateral and substantial increase in the prices of consumer goods is not good for anyone. If you think that it will hurt Walmart more than your small business owner, you are very wrong. As price becomes more important, those that can provide the lowest prices become even more dominant. Do you want to push inflation to where we all need to grow our own food and can't afford to drive to a workplace? Sounds good in theory, but it isn't feasible in this era.

    We certainly need to curtail our consumer spending, but getting even less value for the dollar is just going to spread the economic gap between classes even further.
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  4. #4
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    So your plan is raise gas prices so people buy less stuff, thereby closing businesses.

    Just one question. What are you going to do with all the people you put out of work? There are going to be an awful lot of them.

  5. #5
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    Let me clarify: I don't WANT the price of gas to hit 4, 5, or 6 bucks per gallon. But if it happens, then real change will take place. What I mean by change, is short-term pain for the long-term goal of alternative energies. Our President would like us to believe that Hydrogen is the best answer....Wrong. The best answer is to use less petro, and in the meantime, perfect technologies and societal infrastructure to better suit the future.

    Of course, all of the folks with real decision-making ability will be long-gone and dead when any of this change is overdue, so they could give two $hi+s less.

    I almost would like to see our nation stumble economically as a result of our dependence on foreign oil, just so the ingenuity and creativism that made this country great can come back to prominence. Not just "he who has the most $$$$".

    Capitalism run amok.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by ashpelham
    Let me clarify: I don't WANT the price of gas to hit 4, 5, or 6 bucks per gallon. But if it happens, then real change will take place. What I mean by change, is short-term pain for the long-term goal of alternative energies. Our President would like us to believe that Hydrogen is the best answer....Wrong. The best answer is to use less petro, and in the meantime, perfect technologies and societal infrastructure to better suit the future.

    Of course, all of the folks with real decision-making ability will be long-gone and dead when any of this change is overdue, so they could give two $hi+s less.

    I almost would like to see our nation stumble economically as a result of our dependence on foreign oil, just so the ingenuity and creativism that made this country great can come back to prominence. Not just "he who has the most $$$$".

    Capitalism run amok.
    We've been there, done that as a nation. So far, this time around isn't as painful as that time was. If we can't function with gas in the $4.00 range, there isn't going to be any alternative that will fix things. We ain't Europe, we're far more mobile and dependent on our transportation for pretty much everything in our lives. Major changes in our lifestyle is gonna be pretty hard to accept because it ain't gonna be an improvement. We can adapt to smaller cars and less travel but the oil industry is pretty close now to busting their own butts here and getting some legislation passed that they really don't want. They want to build new refineries, I think. Maybe they will get them now.

  7. #7
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    Perfecting technologies and societal infrastructure to better suit the future takes time. Lots of time. And in the meantime, the economy crumbles because no one can afford to ship their products, which means prices go sky-high for the limited remaining stocks and we run into problems with hoarding and black markets. Meanwhile, winter hits the northern part of the country hard, and lots of people can't afford to heat their homes, and food shortages cause riots- after all, nothing grows up here 6 months out of the year, so if it ain't shipped in, we're screwed.

    May I suggest that you think that you are fine with $6.00/gal for gas because you believe it won't affect you? Your post seems to say that. Well, it will affect you. Expensive groceries aren't the only problem- the real problem is what happens when you get laid off from your job because there's no way they can pay you anymore?

    I'm guessing by your post that you are probably in an entry level job (not meant as an insult)- If that's the case, you're the first one to lose your job when things start going bad, and I can tell you from experience, that when the economy tanks, entry-level jobs get really scarce, especially as more experienced people get laid off and are willing to take the pay cut so they can keep making mortgage payments. There is no job in america that isn't tied into every other job in america. The economy tanks, we all tank with it.

    Remember, it took a world war to pull us out of the last depression. And these days, that's the last thing we need.

  8. #8
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    America is designed to consume fuel.

    Back in 1986, I had a car called a Chevy Sprint. That thing got 50mpg and lasted forever.
    In China, they currently have a car that gets 60mpg and retails over there for $3500 US dollars. Our goverment won't let it come in. It scored high on safety standards so that is not why.

    The point is, the more gas we buy, the more tax dollars we generate and the more economies we support, and the more private companies profit. So, what is the incentive to conserve fuel again? It's not pollution. The cars of today burn actually very clean. It's all about money.
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    I agree with your basic premise--that high gas prices will force changes the country needs, like really getting serious about efficiency, getting alternatives off the ground, getting people to change their behavior, etc. The problem is, it's very unlikely unless the planet were hit by several disasters at once: asteroid, hurricanes, earthquakes, etc. The supply is global, and OPEC will simply not allow our economy to stumble because the US is still the predominant economic engine of the world. They will find ways to increase supply.

    There are simply too many petro-states utterly dependent on oil revenues to let us start cutting back: Russia, Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, Mexico, etc. Saudi Arabia still has vast untapped field. Iraq's production will come back eventually and significantly increase supply. Another factor is state subsidies. If Iran and Venezuela can stop charging their citizens 15 cents a gallon instead of letting market price take over as the Indonesians have done, supply will increase further.

    And there are consequences to high gas prices: if demand goes down significantly, then state tax revenues go down as well. Which means the roads get worse, especially for cyclists.

    Not to be cynical, but It almost seems as there is simply no way out of the oil predicament.

  10. #10
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    We gotta move on!

    The Europeans have been paying twice as much for gas as we have for decades, and their economy is outstripping ours. I envision a future with revitalized railroad shipping between hubs near population centers, where the goods would be transferred to trucks for short trips to final destinations. All containerized, of course.

    Lots of urban planners are championing the idea of hubs, clumping work and living spaces into high density areas, with open park land or farming areas in between, pretty much what the Europeans already have. This makes possible getting from one place to another by public rail transportation, with work and living places often within walking distance of the rail stops. Rail is several hundred times more energy efficient than private cars for moving people. But it doesn't work with the old American ideal of every man with this half acre "estate" in suburbia, with huge shopping malls 5 or 10 miles away, in unplanned urban sprawl.

    If these ideas were realized, we could reduce energy consumption by 20%, easily. As gasoline prices continue to rise, slowly but surely we'll turn to conservation measures. We have no choice. This also kicks into a life-style shift spurred by awareness of, excuse the expression, "global warming." Buying local produce at farmers' markets is one way of saving energy costs. There's a really successful one adjacent to, appropriately, the DC Metro station in Takoma Park, MD, that has, every weekend, the most sumptuous vegetables and fruits of every variety, all organically grown by local talent.

    This life-style shift also taps into riding bikes for transportation, commuting distances being shorter, and bike paths sprouting up everywhere. It's all good. For many reasons, environmental, conservation of resource, and life-style, we have to get over our addiction to gasoline, not be enslaved by it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    The Europeans have been paying twice as much for gas as we have for decades, and their economy is outstripping ours. I envision a future with revitalized railroad shipping between hubs near population centers, where the goods would be transferred to trucks for short trips to final destinations. All containerized, of course.

    Lots of urban planners are championing the idea of hubs, clumping work and living spaces into high density areas, with open park land or farming areas in between, pretty much what the Europeans already have. This makes possible getting from one place to another by public rail transportation, with work and living places often within walking distance of the rail stops. Rail is several hundred times more energy efficient than private cars for moving people. But it doesn't work with the old American ideal of every man with this half acre "estate" in suburbia, with huge shopping malls 5 or 10 miles away, in unplanned urban sprawl.

    If these ideas were realized, we could reduce energy consumption by 20%, easily. As gasoline prices continue to rise, slowly but surely we'll turn to conservation measures. We have no choice. This also kicks into a life-style shift spurred by awareness of, excuse the expression, "global warming." Buying local produce at farmers' markets is one way of saving energy costs. There's a really successful one adjacent to, appropriately, the DC Metro station in Takoma Park, MD, that has, every weekend, the most sumptuous vegetables and fruits of every variety, all organically grown by local talent.

    This life-style shift also taps into riding bikes for transportation, commuting distances being shorter, and bike paths sprouting up everywhere. It's all good. For many reasons, environmental, conservation of resource, and life-style, we have to get over our addiction to gasoline, not be enslaved by it.

    All of this sounds great on paper but the reality is that the good old U.S. of A. runs on gas, and lots of it. As you have stated people want their half acre in the 'burbs and are willing to travel a substantial distance to do so.

    The comparisons to Europe are appealing but you have to remember just how small a place it is. The individual countries are basically the size of our states. The distance goods have to travel are far less. And I just don't see the U.S. being able to change ideas and infrastructure quickly enough to do any good for our short term immediate problem. It would take generations to convert back to urban centers from our suburban based living. The fix really is going to have to come in the form of a new source of energy or technology, which because of good old Yankee ingenuity can be brought to market at a faster pace.

    Although after spouting off above I do note that Warren Buffet has been buying up a whole lot of railroad stock lately. Hmmmmm, I wonder why that is?
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    The Europeans have been paying twice as much for gas as we have for decades, and their economy is outstripping ours. I envision a future with revitalized railroad shipping between hubs near population centers, where the goods would be transferred to trucks for short trips to final destinations. All containerized, of course.

    Lots of urban planners are championing the idea of hubs, clumping work and living spaces into high density areas, with open park land or farming areas in between, pretty much what the Europeans already have. This makes possible getting from one place to another by public rail transportation, with work and living places often within walking distance of the rail stops. Rail is several hundred times more energy efficient than private cars for moving people. But it doesn't work with the old American ideal of every man with this half acre "estate" in suburbia, with huge shopping malls 5 or 10 miles away, in unplanned urban sprawl.

    If these ideas were realized, we could reduce energy consumption by 20%, easily. As gasoline prices continue to rise, slowly but surely we'll turn to conservation measures. We have no choice. This also kicks into a life-style shift spurred by awareness of, excuse the expression, "global warming." Buying local produce at farmers' markets is one way of saving energy costs. There's a really successful one adjacent to, appropriately, the DC Metro station in Takoma Park, MD, that has, every weekend, the most sumptuous vegetables and fruits of every variety, all organically grown by local talent.

    This life-style shift also taps into riding bikes for transportation, commuting distances being shorter, and bike paths sprouting up everywhere. It's all good. For many reasons, environmental, conservation of resource, and life-style, we have to get over our addiction to gasoline, not be enslaved by it.
    "lifestyle shifts" are very appealing when you're young and haven't actually developed a lifestyle yet. Later in life, not so appealing anymore. High density housing is noisy and lacks privacy and space. I love my little 1/2 acre estate. My wife has a garden in the back yard, I've got a wood shop in the basement. Farmers markets are great, but again once october hits, nothing is growing up here. And frankly, I trust stokely-van camp's abillity to can vegetables a lot more than I trust my own.

    I've never quite understood just what's so evil about shopping malls. Shopping mall or funky, urban pedestrian mall, they're both about the same distance from my house. Only one of them features free parking- it's the same one that features zero bike-stealing junkies.

    I look forward to the day when rail is reborn in america, but I'll still do most of my travelling by car- I can't take my canoe to montana on a train, nor can I get my kayak to lake michigan on amtrack.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    When it stalls the economy, Democrats will nationalize the industry and we'll have Venezuelan prices.
    Honestly, every time I hear a congressman (usually a Dem) say, "I'm investigating the oil companies," I have to cringe because I fear that price controls or other anti-free market acts are right around the corner.

  14. #14
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    Please clarify the following:

    The Europeans have been paying twice as much for gas as we have for decades, and their economy is outstripping ours.
    I'm curious as to how you reached this conclusion. None of the data I have would support your statement.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    will nationalize the industry and we'll have Venezuelan prices.
    The industry has been nationalized since '00. While the rest of the world does put it to us occasionally, we are still the best at screwing ourselves.

  16. #16
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    Cheap gas is not answer. The minute gas drops in prices, every American will go out a buy the biggest gas guzzling SUV they can afford. The goverment needs to set an incentive to help the private sector produce an alternative fuel source.

  17. #17
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    How about this- we need an x prize for alternative fuel powered cars. I suggest a 500 mile, indy/nascar style race. Racing does 2 things- first, it improves the breed- it takes a lot to make a car go faster than every other car for 500 miles, and it takes a whole lot of engineering to make it not break along the way. Second, and more importantly, racing is cool. If you can actually make electric/alt fuel cars SEXY, you'll make them desirable.

    Just last year, Audi won the 24 hours of LeMans with a turbodiesel engine. This year, Audi is putting a bio-diesel sipping variant of that engine in one of their big expensive sedans.

    If you change the public perception of electric/alt fuel cars from penalty boxes to cool, people will want them, and the market will follow. As long as electric/alt fuel cars are seen as the ride of choice for self-rightous hippies, no one will want them. Heck Prius sales sucked until they redesigned it and made it look cool...

  18. #18
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    Just two pieces of evidence for starters:

    Quote Originally Posted by moneyman
    I'm curious as to how you reached this conclusion. None of the data I have would support your statement.
    http://www.weforum.org/en/initiative...port/index.htm

    Switzerland, Finland and Sweden are the world’s most competitive economies according to The Global Competitiveness Report 2006-2007, released by the World Economic Forum on 26 September 2006. Denmark, Singapore, the United States, Japan, Germany, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom complete the top ten list, but the United States shows the most pronounced drop, falling from first to sixth.
    Here's the exchange rate of the US dollar vs. the Euro:

    http://www.x-rates.com/d/USD/EUR/graph120.html

    The Euro has gone from being worth 1.297 dollars in January to being worth 1.359 dollars in April.

    If these two trends continue, European economies are moving ahead at a faster pace than the once untouchable US juggernaut.

    Of course, we have to define our terms. I know very little about money, although I like to think I know something about economics. The dollar fifteen or twenty years ago was worth more than any European currency. Now it isn't. The balance is slowly shifting, and one of the reasons is America's wasteful use of gasoline, to put it in context with the OP.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    "lifestyle shifts" are very appealing when you're young and haven't actually developed a lifestyle yet. Later in life, not so appealing anymore. High density housing is noisy and lacks privacy and space. I love my little 1/2 acre estate. My wife has a garden in the back yard, I've got a wood shop in the basement. Farmers markets are great, but again once october hits, nothing is growing up here. And frankly, I trust stokely-van camp's abillity to can vegetables a lot more than I trust my own.

    I've never quite understood just what's so evil about shopping malls. Shopping mall or funky, urban pedestrian mall, they're both about the same distance from my house. Only one of them features free parking- it's the same one that features zero bike-stealing junkies.

    I look forward to the day when rail is reborn in america, but I'll still do most of my travelling by car- I can't take my canoe to montana on a train, nor can I get my kayak to lake michigan on amtrack.
    My 86 year old mother moved from her half acre estate into a very small row house in a gated community a few years ago. My mother-in-law is moving back to PA from her condo in Florida. She didn't like the hurricanes. So lifestyle changes aren't that big a deal for many older people, either.

    Ask any New Yorker if you need a half acre of yard around you to have privacy. A nice cinderblock wall will do. The thing I hate about shopping malls, is those huge asphalt parking lots, towering signs and kleig lights. They all have no sense of place. They all look alike. The developers of Silver Spring, MD, did it right. They built a municipal parking garage with free parking on 6 or 7 levels, with elevators to the street, where you can walk to any number of great restaurants, a repertory movie theater, and tony shops within a few minutes, including a Metro stop which will take you to to downtown DC in a half hour.

    50 years from now, your grandkids might be able to take their canoes to Montana on Amtrack, and rent a car and u-haul to take it to the lake, for what you now pay for gas in one month.

    Farmers' markets are an ecologically sensible alternative to trucking the produce in from afar, that's all. No reason not to take advantage of the latter when the local stuff isn't available. It's just lazy and complacent to depend on one way. Anybody who's jumped on a bike to go to the local 7-11 for the Sunday paper could appreciate this.

  20. #20
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    I love it when Gas prices go up. It makes me smile when I go by the gas station.

    1. more utilitarian cyclist are on the road and the safer it is for me riding my bike.

    2. more people would drive efficient cars, carpool and trip link.

    3. People would choose to live close to work, instead of commuting so far. This is a major problem in California where there are a lot of long distant drivers.

    4. The air I breath will be cleaner and I don’t have to look at smog in the south bay.

    5. local, small businesses will thrive and Big Box will dwindle.

    6. Electric vehicles and mass transit will increase which is better for energy use and the air
    7. People will buy less foreign oil and maybe Iraq will not be so important anymore
    8. Crime will go down in Oakland because drive by shootings are to expensive
    9. Homegrown, clean Comprested Natral Gas will be cool for road trips

  21. #21
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    we had that..

    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    I envision a future with revitalized railroad shipping between hubs near population centers, .

    it was called the 1950's....streetcars between many suburban areas and urban centers...
    GM bought all the rights and ripped them out of the ground...

    don't think the automotive industry will allow you to get out of your car that easily, mister..

    I would think automotive lobbyists are currently looking at ways to subsidize gas costs or, as another post suggested, push reform for refinery build contracts.

    6.00$/gallon gas would make people drive less certainly..and I'm pretty sure a few automotive industry CEO's are just not going to stand back and let that happen.

    less required and scheduled maintenance? I don't think so..
    less spare parts purchasing? think again..
    fewer new and used auto sales? uhuh...
    fewer upgrade packages due to inflated price? reconsider...
    Not banned yet.

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy

    1. more utilitarian cyclist are on the road and the safer it is for me riding my bike.
    Fair enough. I love seeing other cyclists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    2. more people would drive efficient cars, carpool and trip link.
    True- my wife just bought a new civic and it was discounted because it had sat on the lot for over 30 days. Meanwhile, the local Hummer dealer can't give 'em away at o% financing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    3. People would choose to live close to work, instead of commuting so far. This is a major problem in California where there are a lot of long distant drivers.
    I didn't realize this until I bought a house, but you really don't get a chance to choose to live near work all that often- You buy the best house you can afford, and you hope that your commute won't be too bad. Or, you buy a house with a nice, short, bikable commute to work and then you office moves 20 miles out of town (happened to me), or you get laid off and your new job is in another town (also happened to me). Once you own a house, it's rare that you're going to move every time you get a new job.

    There are lots of "distant drivers" in california because it's hard to afford a decent place near the city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    4. The air I breath will be cleaner and I don’t have to look at smog in the south bay.
    We can all appreciate that. That's my favorite/least favorite part of bike commuting- I'm not generating any smog, but I am breathing everyone elses...


    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    5. local, small businesses will thrive and Big Box will dwindle.
    See, this, I'm not so sure would be a good thing. Good local, small businesses DO thrive and are harder than cockroaches to kill- they do this by being better than the Big Boxes. The Big Boxes set the bar pretty high- usually decent service, almost always excellent prices, but they're usually not as convenient. A good local store can beat them by being more convenient and have excellent service. BAD local stores are the ones that most often go under- lousy, indiferent service, high prices, arrogant employees- you know, just like your average bad LBS. These stores also seem to make up the bulk of the people who whine about the competiton from the internet and the big boxes...

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    6. Electric vehicles and mass transit will increase which is better for energy use and the air
    Just remember that right now, most of that electricity is still generated with coal, and what you're suggesting simply shifts to a more concentrated source of polution. and we've all seen how keen the power company is to install more scrubbers and polution controls... Hopefully, one day, we'll get over our fear of nuclear power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    7.People will buy less foreign oil and maybe Iraq will not be so important anymore
    Right now, buying less foriegn oil means digging for more oil here. and no one wants that...

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    8. Crime will go down in Oakland because drive by shootings are to expensive
    Or, everyone will switch to horses... clip clop clip clop BANG BANG clip clop...

    Quote Originally Posted by Killroy
    9. Homegrown, clean Comprested Natral Gas will be cool for road trips
    If you can find it.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by buck-50
    Just remember that right now, most of that electricity is still generated with coal, and what you're suggesting simply shifts to a more concentrated source of polution. and we've all seen how keen the power company is to install more scrubbers and polution controls... Hopefully, one day, we'll get over our fear of nuclear power.

    Thanks for you comments. I think you are incorrect. Electric cars don't just shift the polution to the coal burning plant. Check this out: http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog.../evsummary.pdf

    "EVs reduce pollutants by more than 90 percent when compared to the cleanest conventional gasoline-powered vehicles (even when factoring in the emissions from power plants generating the electricity to the charge the vehicle)."

    When EVs are chared at night, they are "load leveling the grid" and using power that would be waisted otherwize because the power stations are designed for the peak and cannot throttle back.

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