Isn't the most pressing and important issue today...
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  1. #1
    AJS
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    Exclamation Isn't the most pressing and important issue today...

    ...the electronic voting machine fiasco that is being forced down our throats? After 2000, if we can't have a fair election with secure machines, accountability, and a verifyable paper trail then everything else is pretty much moot.

    Ask yourself: why is it that most Repub's do not want to bother with a paper trail balloting solution.

  2. #2
    RoadBikeReview Member
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    No.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJS
    ...the electronic voting machine fiasco that is being forced down our throats? After 2000, if we can't have a fair election with secure machines, accountability, and a verifyable paper trail then everything else is pretty much moot.

    Ask yourself: why is it that most Repub's do not want to bother with a paper trail balloting solution.
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  3. #3
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    It is very simple.

    Anyone who argues we do NOT need a voter verifiable paper trail is either a fool or a traitor to the fundamental principles of democracy.

    Most pressing? No, because some states will require it, and some states use other methods. Very important? Yes.
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by AJS
    ...the electronic voting machine fiasco that is being forced down our throats? After 2000, if we can't have a fair election with secure machines, accountability, and a verifyable paper trail then everything else is pretty much moot.

    Ask yourself: why is it that most Repub's do not want to bother with a paper trail balloting solution.
    Ask 10 people what "paper trail" means and you'll get 10 answers, and I bet none of them will be correct. Most people think they are going to walk away with a receipt that shows exactly what they voted for. Nope. That's not how it works.

    I'm amazed that so many people appear to be against something they don't understand, but then the whole Salem witch thing has always mystified me too.
    Last edited by mohair_chair; 08-10-2004 at 03:54 PM.

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by mohair_chair
    Ask 10 people what "paper trail" means and you'll get 10 answers, and I bet none of them will be correct.
    So what does "paper trail" mean?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by czardonic
    So what does "paper trail" mean?
    A paper trail is simply a printer that records the votes on a roll of paper so a manual count can be done. It's sealed, and not accessible or available to voters. It doesn't record information about the voter, so you can't vote and then ask to see the "paper trail" to see if you voted correctly. If something goes wrong with the machines, they can go to the paper rolls and count the votes.

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    That sounds pretty much the same as every other definition I have heard, i.e. a printed back-up of the electronic records for verification purposes.

    That said, without the ability to provide a reciept for each vote, the paper trail seems useless to me.

  8. #8
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    paper trail vs. voter verifiable paper trail

    Quote Originally Posted by czardonic
    That sounds pretty much the same as every other definition I have heard, i.e. a printed back-up of the electronic records for verification purposes.

    That said, without the ability to provide a reciept for each vote, the paper trail seems useless to me.

    The voter verifiable paper trail prints out your vote, which you can look at and THEN drop into a box before you leave the voting place. This would be used only in case of a recount, or of course if a bunch of people start saying "HEY! I did not vote like THIS!"

    No one says people should take them home, but unless people can LOOK at them, there is no point in a paper trail. If you can subvert the electronics, you can subvert the printers that RELY on the electronics.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by czardonic
    That sounds pretty much the same as every other definition I have heard, i.e. a printed back-up of the electronic records for verification purposes.

    That said, without the ability to provide a reciept for each vote, the paper trail seems useless to me.
    What good does a receipt do? I can make one up on my own and claim it's real. It's not like it's a useful document. Ever notice how many receipts you find around an ATM? It's just wasted paper. A paper trail is a legitimate backup device.

  10. #10
    AJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr hoo
    Most pressing? No, because some states will require it, and some states use other methods. Very important? Yes.
    "Most pressing" in the sense that there's less than 3 months to go, and the issue is far from settled, although they've had nearly 4 years to do so, (and the potential consequences if it doesn't get fixed fairly and properly).

  11. #11
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    That's why it's PUT IN A LOCKED BOX!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by mohair_chair
    What good does a receipt do? I can make one up on my own and claim it's real. It's not like it's a useful document. Ever notice how many receipts you find around an ATM? It's just wasted paper. A paper trail is a legitimate backup device.
    The receipt is put in a locked box in case of recount. Absolutely NO ONE has said people should TAKE IT HOME WITH THEM. Look at it, verify, put in locked box.

    Anymore strawmen you want to wave around?
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  12. #12
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    I consider it important, but I consider the election commissions to be non-partisan, so I'm puzzled that you point a finger at republicans.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr hoo
    The receipt is put in a locked box in case of recount. Absolutely NO ONE has said people should TAKE IT HOME WITH THEM. Look at it, verify, put in locked box.

    Anymore strawmen you want to wave around?
    Is that the same Lock box that the social security was going to be used for?
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  14. #14
    AJS
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duane Gran
    I consider it important, but I consider the election commissions to be non-partisan, so I'm puzzled that you point a finger at republicans.
    Repeat when necessary:

    "Ask yourself: why is it that most Repub's do not want to bother with a paper trail balloting solution."

    My understanding is that it is many of the Repub's in Congress now and others involved in the testing of which system(s) to select, not so much the election commission itself that are the one's opposed. The attempt is to sway the commission against paper trails.

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    Just curious.

    Quote Originally Posted by mohair_chair
    I can make one up on my own and claim it's real.
    Even if this argument weren't moot, why would you do such a thing?

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