Lebanon Part Duex? What's Israel trying to accomplish this time?
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  1. #1
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    Lebanon Part Duex? What's Israel trying to accomplish this time?

    This is just stupidity...

    Israel shells near UN school, killing at least 30

    GAZA CITY, Gaza (AP) - Israeli mortar shells struck outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people - many of them children whose parents wailed in grief at a hospital filled with dead and wounded.

    The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area.

    Despite international criticism over civilian deaths and a diplomatic push to broker a cease-fire, Israeli said it would push on with the offensive against Hamas.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    This is just stupidity...

    The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area.

    You're right, Hamas is being pretty stupid, as are the Palestinians who support them. The path to end the violence is clear and simple.


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    Yeah, it's stupid. Why can't Israel just accept that Hamas has a right to fire rockets and mortars into their towns and kill people?

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    Only thing worse than using children is shields is ignoring said child shields.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    Despite international criticism over civilian deaths and a diplomatic push to broker a cease-fire, Israeli said it would push on with the offensive against Hamas.
    I hope they keep going until the last Hamas follower is dead. The cowards set their mortar up next to a school to cause civilian casualties. They should all be killed just for that.
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    until the people admit these guys are getting us killed for their cause this will go on FOREVER!

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    wrong place. see below.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 01-06-2009 at 04:41 PM.

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    Israel has fallen into Hamas' trap.

    Obviously Hamas is drawing Israeli fire into schools and UN refuges, where innocent civilians, notably women and children are being killed. The effect, of course, is to outrage the world against Israel. It's working brilliantly, as it did in Lebanon. The end result is it will strengthen Hamas, as it strengthened Hizbullah in Lebanon. For this reason Israeli strategists should wake up, and realize their current strategy is counter-productive.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 01-06-2009 at 04:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill
    I hope they keep going until the last Hamas follower is dead. The cowards set their mortar up next to a school to cause civilian casualties. They should all be killed just for that.
    Amen. I'm with you: bulldoze the entire strip.


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    I think they are trying to catch this guy
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill
    I hope they keep going until the last Hamas follower is dead. The cowards set their mortar up next to a school to cause civilian casualties. They should all be killed just for that.
    And Israeli troops didn't know what they were firing on? Pleeeeease....
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    This is just stupidity...

    Israel shells near UN school, killing at least 30

    GAZA CITY, Gaza (AP) - Israeli mortar shells struck outside a U.N. school where hundreds of Palestinians had sought refuge on Tuesday, killing at least 30 people - many of them children whose parents wailed in grief at a hospital filled with dead and wounded.

    The Israeli army said its soldiers came under fire from militants hiding in the school and responded. It accused Gaza's Hamas rulers of "cynically" using civilians as human shields. Residents confirmed the account, saying militants were seen staging attacks from the area.

    Despite international criticism over civilian deaths and a diplomatic push to broker a cease-fire, Israeli said it would push on with the offensive against Hamas.
    Why don't you and the outraged international community holler on Hamas instead of Israel since they are the ones using children as shields. Put the outrage where it belings and maybe they won't do it so much.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    And Israeli troops didn't know what they were firing on? Pleeeeease....

    Chances are they didn't know there was a school there, at least not the guys who did the shooting. The countermortar system identifies and computes the location of the bad guy mortar in a matter of seconds. Mortar teams tend to move quickly so a quick shoot is the best method to kill them. If the reports are correct, the mortar team was also killed alongside the civilians.

    Hamas knows this and this is why they shoot from school yards, on top of houses, etc. Pretty smart on their behalf to shoot from a UN school yard. They've read the Hizbullah play book. Unfortunately for the mortar team they weren't fast enough and are now dead. I'm sure they didn't mean to hang around and get killed. Suicide mortar teams don't make sense (they tend to lose their mortars if they do this, mortars will start to be in high demand here pretty soon in Gaza as this scenario plays over a few times).

    Israel will make an apology for killing innocent civilians but will continue to push on. Israel isn't going to pay attention to international opinion this time.

    Let's see what happens on 20 JAN. Maybe Leon Panetta can figure all this out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snakebit
    Why don't you and the outraged international community holler on Hamas instead of Israel since they are the ones using children as shields. Put the outrage where it belings and maybe they won't do it so much.
    You're right! How could I not have seen it that way? Israelis are always right, Palestinians are always wrong. You solved the ME conflict in two sentences. It's the Nobel Peace Prize for you... :yawn:
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    Quote Originally Posted by ecd7175
    Let's see what happens on 20 JAN. Maybe Leon Panetta can figure all this out.
    Everyone will be distracted by the clean air and lowering sea levels as the polar ice caps refreeze. Except for the Antartic which is already pretty thick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    You're right! How could I not have seen it that way? Israelis are always right, Palestinians are always wrong. You solved the ME conflict in two sentences. It's the Nobel Peace Prize for you... :yawn:
    Why do you always twist things around to fit your argument? Palestinian doesn't mean Hamas. Hamas is a military faction that has sworn to the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. Palestine is where the Palestinians live and get used by Hamas as human shields. Your ignorance of the middle east is staggering.
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    Score: 500+ Gaza dead; 11 Israeli dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by AP
    Some 15,000 Palestinians have packed the U.N.'s 23 Gaza schools because their homes were destroyed or to flee the violence. The U.N. provided the Israeli military with GPS coordinates for all of them.

    A total of 71 Palestinians were killed Tuesday — with just two confirmed as militants, Gaza health officials said.

    An Israeli infant was wounded by one of about two dozen rockets fired into southern Israel by Gaza militants.

    Eleven Israelis have been killed since the offensive began: three civilians and a soldier by rocket fire and seven soldiers in the ground offensive, according to Isaeli officials.
    Talk about collateral damage. I don't care how close these Hamas militants were to these places, the Israelis have much more blood on their hands. 2 militants killed and 69 innocent civilians? Outrageous, totally outrageous.

    The same stuff happened in Vietnam. US troops would napalm villages "known to harbor Viet Cong," and kill everyone. All that did was make the villagers hate the US troops and sympathise with the VC. We know how that war ended.
    Last edited by Fredrico; 01-06-2009 at 10:06 PM.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill
    Why do you always twist things around to fit your argument? Palestinian doesn't mean Hamas. Hamas is a military faction that has sworn to the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. Palestine is where the Palestinians live and get used by Hamas as human shields. Your ignorance of the middle east is staggering.
    Is Hamas only a militant group? You need to check your ignorance as well... You are twisting things too...

    Have Israelis killed innocent Palestinian children in the past?
    Last edited by spyderman; 01-06-2009 at 10:14 PM.
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  19. #19
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    "Human shields?"

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill
    Why do you always twist things around to fit your argument? Palestinian doesn't mean Hamas. Hamas is a military faction that has sworn to the destruction of Israel and the killing of Jews. Palestine is where the Palestinians live and get used by Hamas as human shields. Your ignorance of the middle east is staggering.
    That's another mistaken idea, because the Israelis have nothing but contempt for civilians nearby, including UN operatives.

    Words are one thing, actions another. Israel has killed over 500 Palestinians in one week, compared to 11 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets. There has to be a better way for Israel to battle the Hamas rocket attacks than wreaking the death and destruction of 100 tons of bombs on Gaza and subsequent tank shelling amidst innocent civilians.

    The militants weren't forcing these people to stand in front of their mortars. They merely ran up into the streets, fired off a round or two, then got the hell out of there. That's the nature of guerilla warfare. You won't win by killing civilians. You have to separate out the terrorists first. That's why Israel will never win this war.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    That's another mistaken idea, because the Israelis have nothing but contempt for civilians nearby, including UN operatives.

    Words are one thing, actions another. Israel has killed over 500 Palestinians in one week, compared to 11 Israelis killed by Hamas rockets. There has to be a better way for Israel to battle the Hamas rocket attacks than wreaking the death and destruction of 100 tons of bombs on Gaza and subsequent tank shelling amidst innocent civilians.

    The militants weren't forcing these people to stand in front of their mortars. They merely ran up into the streets, fired off a round or two, then got the hell out of there. That's the nature of guerilla warfare. You won't win by killing civilians. You have to separate out the terrorists first. That's why Israel will never win this war.


    How can you separate out the terrorists when those terrorists make up the popularly elected government? A majority of the citizens in Gaza support Hamas. Sorry, but that pretty much relieves them of any claims they may have of innocence. What are the innocent citizens doing to stop the terrorists?


    supervillain

  21. #21
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    So, back to the original question: What's Israel trying to accomplish this time?

    This will only backfire on them yet again...
    "Walmart ... Where else can you crush your business competition, and yet, serve and control the lumpenproletariat." Mr. Grumpy

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  22. #22
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    Please forgive my simplemindedness.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenB
    How can you separate out the terrorists when those terrorists make up the popularly elected government? A majority of the citizens in Gaza support Hamas. Sorry, but that pretty much relieves them of any claims they may have of innocence. What are the innocent citizens doing to stop the terrorists?
    But those women and children holed up in the UN school weren't enemy combatants, in no way a threat to Israeli security by any stretch of the imagination.

    If a couple of gang members were shooting at police in your neighborhood, would you be cool if a tank rolled down the street and started unloading rounds into the house next to the yard they were firing from? That wouldn't be an appropriate response to the threat, would it?

    Israel has never made appropriate responses to Palestinian threats. They solidify support behind the enemy, as they did to get Hamas elected in Gaza, and make the threats worse.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    But those women and children holed up in the UN school weren't enemy combatants, in no way a threat to Israeli security by any stretch of the imagination.

    If a couple of gang members were shooting at police in your neighborhood, would you be cool if a tank rolled down the street and started unloading rounds into the house next to the yard they were firing from? That wouldn't be an appropriate response to the threat, would it?

    Israel has never made appropriate responses to Palestinian threats. They solidify support behind the enemy, as they did to get Hamas elected in Gaza, and make the threats worse.
    War is hell...
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by spyderman
    So, back to the original question: What's Israel trying to accomplish this time?

    This will only backfire on them yet again...
    IOW, what do they want to happen when this is over that is BETTER for them than before it started? Not what is the tactical goal, but what is the strategic goal, and how do these tactics potentially lead to that goal.
    .
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico
    But those women and children holed up in the UN school weren't enemy combatants, in no way a threat to Israeli security by any stretch of the imagination.

    If a couple of gang members were shooting at police in your neighborhood, would you be cool if a tank rolled down the street and started unloading rounds into the house next to the yard they were firing from? That wouldn't be an appropriate response to the threat, would it?

    Israel has never made appropriate responses to Palestinian threats. They solidify support behind the enemy, as they did to get Hamas elected in Gaza, and make the threats worse.

    If the gang member was continually shooting rockets into other neighborhoods, not only would I understand the government sending in the troops and bringing fire to bear on the locations the gangs were shooting from..... I'd be doing everything I could to assist said government in killing those gang members.

    "Appropriate responses" What a hoot. When someone is shooting at you, you shoot back until they stop. War is hell and the People of Gaza have declared it on Israel. To expect Israel to fight a limited battle is laughable.

    The People of Gaza can very easily make Israel stop by either ridding themselves of Hamas or making Hamas stop attacking Israel. The solution is in their hands. I've never supported our funding of Israel and still don't but I sure as hell see where Israel is coming from in this one and I don't blame them a bit.


    supervillain

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