MINIMUM WAGES: Country-by-country comparisons
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  1. #1
    xxl
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    MINIMUM WAGES: Country-by-country comparisons

    Just in time for Labor Day, and dovetailing neatly with recent efforts by some in this country to push the minimum wage closer to a living wage, the Atlantic provides this helpful comparison of minimum wages from across the globe, so one can see how America's stacks up:

    How America's Minimum Wage Really Stacks Up Globally - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic




    The cool thing about this is that it's based on the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in the various countries, so no more of these other countries hiding their seemingly abysmal min-wage pay rates behind the fact that you can also score a luxury penthouse with staff there for mere pennies, compared to one in America, while getting the gummint to pony up for health care, education, etc. 1%-ers take note!

    Accompanying soundtrack here:

    Minimum Wage - They Might Be Giants - YouTube
    Bus Boys- Minimum wage - YouTube
    Best Alternative Reggae Ever - The Expendables- Minimum Wage [HD] - YouTube

  2. #2
    Ricardo Cabeza
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    1). yet, people keep wanting to come here, why is that?
    2). If you include ALL the data, the US minimum wage does really seem all the dismal, does it? List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3). what are the effective tax rates of the countries with high minimum wages?

    4). the narrative is, of course, that once in a minimum wage job, always in one, meaning the libbies who think this crap up believe minimum wage employees are too stupid to work their way up into better paying positions.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  3. #3
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    Fast food workers still don't deserve $15/hr, especially if they can't get my order correct the first time.

  4. #4
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    1). yet, people keep wanting to come here, why is that?
    2). If you include ALL the data, the US minimum wage does really seem all the dismal, does it? List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3). what are the effective tax rates of the countries with high minimum wages?

    4). the narrative is, of course, that once in a minimum wage job, always in one, meaning the libbies who think this crap up believe minimum wage employees are too stupid to work their way up into better paying positions.
    1) Look at the chart I poasted; lots of countries whose minimum wages are lower than in the United States, even with PPP adjustments. Using your chart, I get the US wage (i.e., column 1) as #13, vs. the world. Mine has the US a tad higher than that.

    2) What other data from your wiki cite do you feel adds to the picture (see #1, above)? What do you think it says?

    3) You tell me, you're looking at "all the data." But using PPP data (included in your wiki poast) reflects actual purchasing power.

    4) The narrative, of course, isn't the one you thought you read here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    1). yet, people keep wanting to come here, why is that?
    2). If you include ALL the data, the US minimum wage does really seem all the dismal, does it? List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3). what are the effective tax rates of the countries with high minimum wages?

    4). the narrative is, of course, that once in a minimum wage job, always in one, meaning the libbies who think this crap up believe minimum wage employees are too stupid to work their way up into better paying positions.
    Not all that dismal...isn't exactly something to cheer about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    1). yet, people keep wanting to come here, why is that?
    2). If you include ALL the data, the US minimum wage does really seem all the dismal, does it? List of minimum wages by country - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    3). what are the effective tax rates of the countries with high minimum wages?

    4). the narrative is, of course, that once in a minimum wage job, always in one, meaning the libbies who think this crap up believe minimum wage employees are too stupid to work their way up into better paying positions.
    Minimum wage isn't why people come to the US, it's the opportunity to advance beyond minimum wage jobs.

    Raising pay beyond what the market will pay is not a solution. The market adjusts and you're back in the same position. But, it gets votes for politicians who talk about it.
    Retired sailor

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    what do you mean "the market adjusts?"

    if you mean that prices will rise such that the extra purchasing power from an increased minimum wage will be eaten up by increased prices , then, you are incorrect.

    that position is demonstrably ,'empirically false.

    will someone not on mobile post some decent data here? lots of research has been done --

    it does transfer some profits from shareholders to workers . you can argue whether you think that's laudable or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    Minimum wage isn't why people come to the US, it's the opportunity to advance beyond minimum wage jobs.

    Raising pay beyond what the market will pay is not a solution. The market adjusts and you're back in the same position. But, it gets votes for politicians who talk about it.

  8. #8
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    jobs above the min wage - the ones those retail workers aspire to - still reference the min.

    it's not that a job is either min wage or , not.

    so, raising the minimum also pulls up other wages, though at a ratio less than 1:1

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    Quote Originally Posted by Argentius View Post
    what do you mean "the market adjusts?"

    if you mean that prices will rise such that the extra purchasing power from an increased minimum wage will be eaten up by increased prices , then, you are incorrect.

    that position is demonstrably ,'empirically false.

    will someone not on mobile post some decent data here? lots of research has been done --

    it does transfer some profits from shareholders to workers . you can argue whether you think that's laudable or not.
    So you're saying that if an employer has to pay an employee more that they won't raise prices to cover payroll? The company will still want the same profit margin so something has to change. Shareholders aren't in it for philanthropic purposes.
    Retired sailor

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    [QUOTE=xxl;4447329]1) Look at the chart I poasted; lots of countries whose minimum wages are lower than in the United States, even with PPP adjustments. Using your chart, I get the US wage (i.e., column 1) as #13, vs. the world. Mine has the US a tad higher than that.

    Yours shows the US 10 of 26. Wikipedia shows the US is 13 out of around 200. Quite a very large difference there, don't you think? And the US is close to the top in just about every comparison that matters on the Wiki chart.

    So how high on the list is good enough for you? 12? 7? 1?

    It should also be noted that a number of very prosperous countries have no minimum wage law, including Germany, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Italy, and Switzerland.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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    Hey, if there is a minumum wage, should there not be a minumum purchase by the customer?

    If govt over rides the market to set wages, why not over ride the market and set purchases?

    Oh ya, that right, It all about buying votes anyway.

  12. #12
    xxl
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    [QUOTE=Andy69;4447423]
    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    1) Look at the chart I poasted; lots of countries whose minimum wages are lower than in the United States, even with PPP adjustments. Using your chart, I get the US wage (i.e., column 1) as #13, vs. the world. Mine has the US a tad higher than that.

    Yours shows the US 10 of 26. Wikipedia shows the US is 13 out of around 200. Quite a very large difference there, don't you think? And the US is close to the top in just about every comparison that matters on the Wiki chart.

    So how high on the list is good enough for you? 12? 7? 1?

    It should also be noted that a number of very prosperous countries have no minimum wage law, including Germany, Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Italy, and Switzerland.
    No, not really, since it's rank-order data. A #10 ranking isn't 30% better than a #13 rank, any more than a #10 ranked football team is 30% better than a #13 team. What would be more insightful would be to consider absolute monetary differences (column 1 in the wiki chart); compare rank vs. PPP, or %GDP, for example, of US vs., say, Argentina. Similarly, the US and UK are close in rank, but vary considerably in monetary compensations rendered to their min-wagers, especially when one factors in health care in the UK.

    Iceland has collective bargaining agreements that apply to what would be min-wage workers in the US (de facto unionizing), as do Norway, Sweden, Italy, Switzerland, and Germany (which also has a codified defined "immoral wage" floor--nothing like that in America). As you said, it helps to look at all the data, doesn't it?

    What would be good enough for me is for the minimum wage to move closer to a living wage for Americans, especially when one factors in that labor costs are typically not a large relative cost component of many US businesses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith View Post
    Hey, if there is a minumum wage, should there not be a minumum purchase by the customer?

    If govt over rides the market to set wages, why not over ride the market and set purchases?

    Oh ya, that right, It all about buying votes anyway.
    The government represents the voice of the people who are in the labor market. Power to affect wage negotiations against employers is generally nonexistent in minimum-wage jobs; employers hold all the cards, and dictate the game. What is it that you think is reflective of "free market" conditions, when such asymetrical power structures exist, since one party clearly has much more power to affect wages than other parties? It's not exactly the Econ 101 "free market" mechanism that neocons claim to adhere to.

    Adam Smith noted long ago (in "Wealth of Nations") that “All for ourselves and nothing for other people seems in every age of the world to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.” He had figured out that "free markets" were anything but, for many participants.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    1). yet, people keep wanting to come here, why is that?
    They enjoy getting out in the fresh air and sunshine, becoming one with the land, gathering a few fruit and vegetables?

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    Last week, I was in a fastfood drive-thru and this song began playing on my iPod. It was playing as I payed and got the food. Kinda surreal.


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    Re: MINIMUM WAGES: Country-by-country comparisons

    Quote Originally Posted by dougclaysmith View Post
    Hey, if there is a minumum wage, should there not be a minumum purchase by the customer?

    If govt over rides the market to set wages, why not over ride the market and set purchases?

    Oh ya, that right, It all about buying votes anyway.
    Crazy!

    Government can't force people to buy things.

    Can they?

    ;)

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    Crazy!

    Government can't force people to buy things.

    Can they?

    ;)
    Yep. Why just the other day, I had to help pony up for a bunch of these:




    And Uncle won't even let me take it out for a spin! No justice, tell you what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Yep. Why just the other day, I had to help pony up for a bunch of these:




    And Uncle won't even let me take it out for a spin! No justice, tell you what.
    You may be a bit over the age now but there was a time ..... even if that one wasn't available to you, Uncle has lots of others he would have gladly given you access to.

  19. #19
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    That's the thing with the market. People don't always get what they want.

    After all, goods have substitutes. Actions don't happen in a vaccuum.

    You know when times are tight, the economy is bad, and suddenly the "productivity" statistics of workers go up a bunch? That is because workers are being squeezed.

    If you push up the minimum wage, you are squeezing profits in a similar fashion.

    You talk about the market. The market sets the price of goods -- or, at least, the quantity demanded at a given price, depending upon your perspective.

    If a company raises its prices, it will sell less product, ceteris paribus.

    So, what happens?

    Wages rise.

    Prices rise too, but, not by as much as wages.

    End result?

    Workers at the low to middle end of the wage scale have a little more money. I like to define it in human terms like, do not have to decide between rent and groceries. It might even help improve people's choices -- after all, poverty in of itself worsens decision-making skills, a subject for a later debate.

    Corporate profits -- the ones at or near at record highs -- go down a bit, too.

    Medium-term, if those lower-income consumers have more money to spend, they are likely to spend it... that's good for the economy as a whole, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by bigbill View Post
    So you're saying that if an employer has to pay an employee more that they won't raise prices to cover payroll? The company will still want the same profit margin so something has to change. Shareholders aren't in it for philanthropic purposes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    Just in time for Labor Day, and dovetailing neatly with recent efforts by some in this country to push the minimum wage closer to a living wage, the Atlantic provides this helpful comparison of minimum wages from across the globe, so one can see how America's stacks up:

    How America's Minimum Wage Really Stacks Up Globally - Jordan Weissmann - The Atlantic




    The cool thing about this is that it's based on the Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) in the various countries, so no more of these other countries hiding their seemingly abysmal min-wage pay rates behind the fact that you can also score a luxury penthouse with staff there for mere pennies, compared to one in America, while getting the gummint to pony up for health care, education, etc. 1%-ers take note!

    Accompanying soundtrack here:

    Minimum Wage - They Might Be Giants - YouTube
    Bus Boys- Minimum wage - YouTube
    Best Alternative Reggae Ever - The Expendables- Minimum Wage [HD] - YouTube
    Red herring. A meaningful chart would show median wage based on PPP. The minimum wage doesn't have anything to do with prosperity of a particular country and most likely has a perverse effect. Think through it.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    What would be good enough for me is for the minimum wage to move closer to a living wage for Americans, especially when one factors in that labor costs are typically not a large relative cost component of many US businesses.
    Higher minimum wage = higher unemployment among those with low skills. Make the minimum wage $15/hr and you ensure that anyone whose labor and skills are worth less than the minimum simply does not get a job. Who in their right mind is going to pay someone $15/hr for $3/hr worth of work?

    If McDonald's is forced to pay cashiers $15 per hour, the only thing that will happen is that those jobs will be eliminated, either by something like a self serve kiosk or by centralized order processing.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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    You're not supposed to make a career on minimum wage jobs.

    Of course, it's a good campaigning platform for a politician if they wish to convey that they are "for the poor". For some reason, many ill informed folks believe that raising minimum wage will buy them the American Dream in suburbia.
    Life is like a dogsled team. If you ain't the lead dog, the view never changes

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    Higher minimum wage = higher unemployment among those with low skills. Make the minimum wage $15/hr and you ensure that anyone whose labor and skills are worth less than the minimum simply does not get a job. Who in their right mind is going to pay someone $15/hr for $3/hr worth of work?

    If McDonald's is forced to pay cashiers $15 per hour, the only thing that will happen is that those jobs will be eliminated, either by something like a self serve kiosk or by centralized order processing.
    Higher unemployment = greater dependence on government. Which party benefits from that?

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    It won't, but it will reduce real human suffering, and, indeed, subsistence on welfare programs which now are needed to supplement many low-wage jobs to meet basic living needs.

    We have three choices for the poor:

    1 ) Regulate the market such that income from work is most likely to provide all of the basic subsistence needs of the lowest income quintile.

    2 ) Provide wellfare support to top-up the incomes for those whose full-time jobs cannot meet basic needs

    3 ) Ignore both of these and let poverty run its course.

    Since I like jobs and work more than I like welfare, I support the first option.

    Quote Originally Posted by BikesOfALesserGod View Post
    You're not supposed to make a career on minimum wage jobs.

    Of course, it's a good campaigning platform for a politician if they wish to convey that they are "for the poor". For some reason, many ill informed folks believe that raising minimum wage will buy them the American Dream in suburbia.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM999 View Post
    Red herring. A meaningful chart would show median wage based on PPP. The minimum wage doesn't have anything to do with prosperity of a particular country and most likely has a perverse effect. Think through it.
    "Red herring" doesn't mean what you think it means. The chart shows minimum wages, i.e., the bottom of a range, not central tendencies. If I'd claimed that this chart showed central tendencies, or general prosperty, then it'd be a red herring, but I didn't make that claim (read my OP closely). If you want central tendency, you could always use your time on the internet to search it out (for instance, ten seconds' worth of search yielded this: OECD iLibrary: Statistics / Society at a Glance / 2011 / Household income), but you must realize that examining the median doesn't show the same thing as examining the bottom. Even then, one needs to proceed with caution; for instance, the OECD figures don't reflect the health-care differential of the US vs. other nations.

    As you note, you need to think through it, get past whatever "stage" your thinking is on. Good luck.

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