The Official+ Trump Senate Impeachment Tread (GOP defense of Trump)
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    The Official+ Trump Senate Impeachment Tread (GOP defense of Trump)

    Let the party begin --- and it began today with Team Trump reveling the core of the President Trump three legged stool defense:

    The first article of impeachment, 'abuse of power,' is not an impeachable offense

    Memo: "House Democrats' Made-Up 'Abuse of Power' Standard Fails To State an Impeachable Offense Because It Does Not Rest on Violation of an Established Law"

    Facts First: Not only is there precedent for abuse of power as an article of impeachment, this argument ignores evidence that came to light prior to the submission deadline for the White House's response.
    "Abuse of power" is not a made-up standard; it was part of the initial articles of impeachment drawn up against Presidents Bill Clinton and Richard Nixon. However, the full House never voted on the articles of impeachment against Nixon, as he resigned beforehand, and abuse of power was not among the articles approved by the full House for Clinton.

    Democrats argue that Trump abused his power by withholding foreign aid for his personal political benefit. Last week, the Government Accountability Office concluded the Trump administration had violated the law, specifically the Impoundment Control Act, by withholding US security aid to Ukraine. In its report, the nonpartisan congressional watchdog wrote, "Faithful execution of the law does not permit the President to substitute his own policy priorities for those that Congress has enacted into law."

    In their memo, Trump's lawyers may have been referring to the GAO report when they argued, "The Senate cannot expand the scope of a trial to consider mere assertions appearing in House reports that the House did not include in the articles of impeachment submitted to a vote." This issue should be addressed shortly, as senators will vote to decide what materials and evidence from the House will be included for the Senate trial.

    Obstruction is not an impeachable offense

    Memo: "House Democrats' Charge of 'Obstruction' Fails Because Invoking Constitutionally Based Privileges and Immunities to Protect the Separation of Powers Is Not an Impeachable Offense"

    Facts First: The Supreme Court weighed in on this issue with Nixon and concluded that neither the President's constitutional right to "executive privilege" nor separation of powers protects him absolutely from providing information requested in the process of a "fair administration of justice."

    Democrats violated due process and Trump's rights

    Memo: "When the impeachment stage-show moved on to the Judiciary Committee, House Democrats again denied the President his rights."

    Facts First: This is incorrect on several counts. Trump's legal team seems to be arguing that the President was entitled to hallmarks of criminal trials such as the right to counsel and to call witnesses. But the President doesn't have the "right" to those things in the way the memo implies because this is not a criminal proceeding-- it's a political one. Nevertheless, the President's lawyers had been invited to participate in the impeachment proceedings conducted by the House Judiciary Committee, but declined to do so.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

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    Not to mention, Trump has not invoked executive privilege. Not once during his entire term.

    He just tells people not to show up or turn over any documents because of 'executive privilege'.

    That's not how it works.
    "Damn. Y'all murdered the sh*t out that mutherf***er"

  3. #3
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    watched about 10 min of the trial today.

    sorry, but this is simply an exercise in futility. Trump is not going to be convicted of anything.

    it is however, an interesting period of time to be an American...watching the country devolve into most citizens' worst nightmare.
    Ancient Astronaut theorists say, 'YES!'

  4. #4
    What the what???
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    It will be instructive to get Democrats and Republicans on the record with statements and votes some will have to defend in November.
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

    I was "social distancing" before it was cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    It will be instructive to get Democrats and Republicans on the record with statements and votes some will have to defend in November.
    The "courtroom of public opinion" - decision due at the 2nd Tuesday of November polls - has been Nancy's chosen venue for months.

    There will be consequences.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    The "courtroom of public opinion" - decision due at the 2nd Tuesday of November polls - has been Nancy's chosen venue for months.

    There will be consequences.
    I have the same feeling I did in 2016 … Trump will win the election again and will see "ZERO" consequences for his actions.

    A couple of Senators will likely see some consequences such as Collins from Main. I have a feeling she is on her way out and she knows it, but is trying to salvage a loosing effort at this point. McSally from Arizona knows she is on the way out as well … though, she is just a temp worker and wasn't elected into office.

    A "Few" will not get re-elected due to their actions or votes in the trial … but most will never see consequences.
    Voting isn't marriage - it's public transport. You are not waiting for "The One" who is absolutely perfect. You are getting on the bus, and if there isn't one going exactly to your destination you don't stay at home and sulk - you take the one going closest to where you want to be!

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    Lots of Party Line votes. Who'd ever have guessed. Moscow Mitch wanting to bundle all the amendments and show them under the rug.

    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    The "courtroom of public opinion" - decision due at the 2nd Tuesday of November polls - has been Nancy's chosen venue for months.

    There will be consequences.

    For whom is the question.

    Odds are, in a year, we'll be standing by for another Trump SOTU about vindication at the polls and at the impeachment.
    "Refreshingly Unconcerned With The Vulgar Exigencies Of Veracity "

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    Trump's lawyers have been lying all day about being shut out of the House impeachment process.

    Here is Cipollone’s response to the House Judiciary Committee’s invitation to participate

    "I would like you to do us a favor"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Lots of Party Line votes. Who'd ever have guessed. Moscow Mitch wanting to bundle all the amendments and show them under the rug.




    For whom is the question.

    Odds are, in a year, we'll be standing by for another Trump SOTU about vindication at the polls and at the impeachment.

    Senate, hence why the party line votes to stifle a fair trail become issues with consequences.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Falsetti View Post
    Trump's lawyers have been lying all day about being shut out of the House impeachment process.
    Thank you for avoiding the all too common tendency of PO participants to wandering off the OP subject.


    Democrats violated due process and Trump's rights

    Memo: "When the impeachment stage-show moved on to the Judiciary Committee, House Democrats again denied the President his rights."

    Facts First: This is incorrect on several counts. Trump's legal team seems to be arguing that the President was entitled to hallmarks of criminal trials such as the right to counsel and to call witnesses. But the President doesn't have the "right" to those things in the way the memo implies because this is not a criminal proceeding-- it's a political one. Nevertheless, the President's lawyers had been invited to participate in the impeachment proceedings conducted by the House Judiciary Committee, but declined to do so.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    deleted double post
    Last edited by Opus51569; 01-22-2020 at 05:16 AM.
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

    I was "social distancing" before it was cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    I have the same feeling I did in 2016 … Trump will win the election again and will see "ZERO" consequences for his actions.
    The difference I see is that in 2016 for all everyone knew about Trump*: reality TV personality, self-styled real estate mogul, "billionaire", etc. What no one knew was how he would transition into the job of being president. What we've learned is that he didn't transition at all. Instead, he's tried to make the presidency into what he normally does, which apparently consists of tweeting, playing golf and holding board meetings and rallies so that he can perform his one-man show. But those who supported him did so because he was a political outsider and neophyte. So, they genuinely thought he was going to:

    1.) Fix a "broken" Washington by draining the swamp (because he wasn't beholden to the political establishment)
    2.) Help the middle and lower class (because he was independently wealthy and didn't need more from corporations or the special interests). He is rich, so obviously he knows how to make you rich too, right?
    3.) Build a wall across the southern border to stop illegal immigration (that Mexico would pay for)
    4.) Repeal and replace Obamacare with something "beautiful" that is cheaper and offers better coverage for Americans (still waiting for a detail on that one)
    5.) Make America "great" again (with no clear definition of what that means)

    Fast forward to today and even his supporters see that the doddering demagogue he was during the campaign wasn't an act for the cameras. It's who he is. FFS he's campaigning now on a slogan to Keep America Great as if the job was already done...
    Last edited by Opus51569; 01-22-2020 at 05:21 AM.
    Given his penchant for nicknames, and his aversion to reading, I've decided to shorten Donald J. Trump to it's essence: Dump*

    I was "social distancing" before it was cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    T FFS he's campaigning now on a slogan to Keep America Great as if the job was already done...
    You don't get it. He is so great that the mere fact of his presidency makes America great.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    FFS he's campaigning now on a slogan to Keep America Great as if the job was already done...
    It was done. Obama did it when he cleaned up GWB's mess.
    Beating the S&P 500 is not hard - for me. Apparently it's darn near impossible for you. I beat the S&P consistently. I’ve since moved most of my stuff into targeted retirement funds and more conservative investments that aren’t likely to beat the index. 90% of my funds are with a management company now. My plans for most of the money I’ve piled up are bigger than I am, and involve things I know little about and I lack the desire to learn how so I handed it off to a pro.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Opus51569 View Post
    So, they genuinely thought he was going to:

    1.) Fix a "broken" Washington by draining the swamp (because he wasn't beholden to the political establishment)
    2.) Help the middle and lower class (because he was independently wealthy and didn't need more from corporations or the special interests). He is rich, so obviously he knows how to make you rich too, right?
    3.) Build a wall across the southern border to stop illegal immigration (that Mexico would pay for)
    4.) Repeal and replace Obamacare with something "beautiful" that is cheaper and offers better coverage for Americans (still waiting for a detail on that one)
    5.) Make America "great" again (with no clear definition of what that means)

    Fast forward to today and even his supporters see that the doddering demagogue he was during the campaign wasn't an act for the cameras. It's who he is. FFS he's campaigning now on a slogan to Keep America Great as if the job was already done...
    And to his supporters ... he has completed all of those, despite the Democratic party.

    We have/had a family friend who has is a hard core religious "Believer" who was upset about how the friendship between my wife and her had deteriorated. She invited my wife over to talk and greeted her with a "STACK" of books for her to read about how Trump was great, Obama was evil and how Trump was saving America.

    This is a college educated woman, who, by all indications is very intelligent and well read.

    She has bought Trump and his BS ... Hook, line and sinker and will defend him with her dying breath.

    His supporters will not waiver ... regardless of evidence presented.
    The Senate will not waiver ... regardless of evidence presented.

    The reality is the Senate trial is a waste of time, regardless of getting votes on record ... it will make "ZERO" difference to Trump supporters and even Independents. People either LOVE Trump ... or believe he is a Vile Piece of Crap. There is no in between or evidence to sway people one way or another.

    When it comes to November, if the same people vote for him again ... there will be a few that saw the light, and a few that moved in his direction due to lack of quality candidates on the Democratic side ... he WILL be voted back into office for a second term ... even if he stands up and shoots Adam Schiff on the Senate floor, that may actually gain him some votes.
    Voting isn't marriage - it's public transport. You are not waiting for "The One" who is absolutely perfect. You are getting on the bus, and if there isn't one going exactly to your destination you don't stay at home and sulk - you take the one going closest to where you want to be!

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    Now back to the OP topic;

    I see this among this mornings headlines is:

    John Roberts scolds legal teams after tense exchange: 'Those addressing the Senate should remember where they are'


    That didn't take long for Robert to step in.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Now back to the OP topic;

    I see this among this mornings headlines is:

    John Roberts scolds legal teams after tense exchange: 'Those addressing the Senate should remember where they are'


    That didn't take long for Robert to step in.
    I saw that earlier ... if the most he does is intervene to "Keep it Civil" this "Trial" is already over.

    At this point, the only way I see new evidence or witnesses introduced in this trial is if he intervenes, and that is unlikely ... not impossible, just highly unlikely.

    Even if both are introduced ... the verdict is pre-determined, even in the eyes of public opinion.
    Voting isn't marriage - it's public transport. You are not waiting for "The One" who is absolutely perfect. You are getting on the bus, and if there isn't one going exactly to your destination you don't stay at home and sulk - you take the one going closest to where you want to be!

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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Senate, hence why the party line votes to stifle a fair trail become issues with consequences.
    It's a good thing there wasn't a party line vote when this farce was started in the house.

    Oh wait....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wookiebiker View Post
    I saw that earlier ... if the most he does is intervene to "Keep it Civil" this "Trial" is already over.

    At this point, the only way I see new evidence or witnesses introduced in this trial is if he intervenes, and that is unlikely ... not impossible, just highly unlikely.

    Even if both are introduced ... the verdict is pre-determined, even in the eyes of public opinion.
    Unfortunately my abilities to predict the consequences of these proceeding are not at your level.

    My measly thinking is Robert's just play a "tell" card advising the Senate he has no intention of merely being a figurehead behind the podium, but an activist. Moreover, based on the first day, the Senate, err, trial, could play out as I hope. The likely Trump escape of justice due to partisans who's conduct is seen as dysfunction by the deciders who's votes in three state cause a Trump EC defeat. Plus the added benefit of perhaps a 50/50 Senate and a Democrat VP (Amy?) holding the tiebreaker vote.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    It's a good thing there wasn't a party line vote when this farce was started in the house.

    Oh wait....
    You ask a good question --- particularly as this was a major theme the Trump defense team raised yesterday.

    Early in the House impeachment proceedings White House Counsel Pat Cipollone wrote to House Speaker Nancy Pelosi outlining President Trump’s numerous complaints about the impeachment process. At least as to the argument that the current inquiry is invalid because there has been no formal vote by the House of Representatives, there should be little doubt that Cipollone is wrong. No such vote is necessary because the Constitution dictates no fixed process for impeachment investigations or trials. This know from the U.S. Supreme Court’s rejection of Judge Walter L. Nixon’s challenge to his impeachment more than twenty years ago.

    Again thank you for this opportunity to clear up any confusion of this erroneous Trump defense propaganda.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

    No Lives Matter - D. Trump

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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Now back to the OP topic;

    I see this among this mornings headlines is:

    John Roberts scolds legal teams after tense exchange: 'Those addressing the Senate should remember where they are'


    That didn't take long for Robert to step in.
    During the parts of the trial I heard yesterday, Sekulow was clearly speaking to the public rather than to the Senate. My hope is that Roberts wants to minimize political grandstanding. But at the same time, I don't see him as making substantive interventions.

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    Schiff may have mischaracterized...

    In one section of the letter, Schiff claims that Parnas “continued to try to arrange a meeting with President Zelensky,”

    But an unredacted version of the exchange shows that several days later, Parnas sent Giuliani a word document that appears to show notes from an interview with Mykola Zlochevsky



    https://www.politico.com/amp/news/20...vidence-101832

    I guess Schiff must not have had access to the unredacted version.... or is a scummy liar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Unfortunately my abilities to predict the consequences of these proceeding are not at your level.
    Can you say in all honesty that you see the Senate voting to convict Trump of any charges? If not ... then your abilities to predict are the same as mine.

    There are potentially 4 swing district Senators who may lose their election come November, an of those 4 ... really only 2 are in serious threat (Collins and McSally). If you think the Senate will change leadership due to this Senate "Trial" ... your predictive abilities are as good as mine.

    The result is pre-determined ... and was before the house even started gathering evidence against Trump to impeach him.

    Our political system is clearly broken at this point ... it's an Us vs. Them system in a politically divided country. Every decision is made on a partisan basis, and when they call a bill, measure or any type of legislation "Bi-Partisan" it's because they were able to get "One or Two" people from the other side to join ... not an actual majority making a true Bi-Partisan legislative piece.

    The country it's self is just as divided ... take a look around ... it's not very hard to see unless you are looking through magical lenses.
    Voting isn't marriage - it's public transport. You are not waiting for "The One" who is absolutely perfect. You are getting on the bus, and if there isn't one going exactly to your destination you don't stay at home and sulk - you take the one going closest to where you want to be!

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post

    I guess Schiff must not have had access to the unredacted version.... or is a scummy liar.
    Given your devotion to scummy liars I can only assume that we will be regaled with post after post defending Schiff in the future.
    In the time of battle you don't rise to the occasion you resort to the level of your conditioning...

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    Quote Originally Posted by davesupra View Post
    Schiff may have mischaracterized...

    In one section of the letter, Schiff claims that Parnas “continued to try to arrange a meeting with President Zelensky,”

    But an unredacted version of the exchange shows that several days later, Parnas sent Giuliani a word document that appears to show notes from an interview with Mykola Zlochevsky



    https://www.politico.com/amp/news/20...vidence-101832

    I guess Schiff must not have had access to the unredacted version.... or is a scummy liar.
    Since when have "mischaracterizations" bothered you?




    Mind you, this is a member of the American Bar Association, appearing before the United States Senate. Ah, but no matter.
    "Damn. Y'all murdered the sh*t out that mutherf***er"

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