States with more guns have more gun crimes? WTF??
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  1. #1
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    States with more guns have more gun crimes? WTF??


  2. #2
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    The statistics don't matter because 'murica.

  3. #3
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    More Gun Myths Disproven:

    * For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.

    * A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    d'uh!

    but it's the sheep with guns who get killed.

    you can beat the odds by handing out as many guns as possible to the sheep, and then donning one of these;


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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    More Gun Myths Disproven:

    * For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home.

    * A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
    You do realize it is the persons choice to defend themsleves the way they want. If they get killed doing it then that is the risk they chose.

    If a person wants to off themsleves with a gun instead of hanging,,that is their choice as well.

    I choose to carry when allowed by law and so does my wife. If my wife is going to be assualted I want her to have the best chance. And yes, I am very well trained and have carried concealed while in the military, as a contractor and as a civilian. My wife is well trained as well.

    But you know, that really does not matter how much training one has or does not. It should be the individuals right to choose how to defend themselves.

  6. #6
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    would you be, then, one of those who disputes or disagrees with the common NRA claim that more guns make a community safer?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mengtian View Post
    You do realize it is the persons choice to defend themsleves the way they want. If they get killed doing it then that is the risk they chose.

    If a person wants to off themsleves with a gun instead of hanging,,that is their choice as well.

    I choose to carry when allowed by law and so does my wife. If my wife is going to be assualted I want her to have the best chance. And yes, I am very well trained and have carried concealed while in the military, as a contractor and as a civilian. My wife is well trained as well.

    But you know, that really does not matter how much training one has or does not. It should be the individuals right to choose how to defend themselves.
    I'm trying to understand your point in opposition to those above --- more guns means more gun crimes.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    I'm trying to understand your point in opposition to those above --- more guns means more gun crimes.
    Not if the right people have them.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by pone View Post
    would you be, then, one of those who disputes or disagrees with the common NRA claim that more guns make a community safer?
    My stand on guns is one thing and has nothing to do or influenced by any group....including the NRA. I don't give a hoot about any stats, or the horror stories that happen with gun accidents.

    I care about how I can defend my family and how they can choose to defend themsleves. It is no ones business, including the government, NRA, Congress, or folks that do studies to vindicate thier own philosophies.

    If I choose to carry a firearm, that is my business. Period. Of course these are only my opinions LOL.

  10. #10
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    more of an "odds are for others" kinda guy then? i can dig it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mengtian View Post
    My stand on guns is one thing and has nothing to do or influenced by any group....including the NRA. I don't give a hoot about any stats, or the horror stories that happen with gun accidents.

    I care about how I can defend my family and how they can choose to defend themsleves. It is no ones business, including the government, NRA, Congress, or folks that do studies to vindicate thier own philosophies.

    If I choose to carry a firearm, that is my business. Period. Of course these are only my opinions LOL.
    Actually you may choice to carry a firearm, but such a right may be subject to gaining appropriate permission to do so on a continuous basis. You know, if for no other reason then to protect flag-waving. freedom-loving, tax-paying, Republican-voting innocent bystanders from getting inadvertently caught in the cross fire.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  12. #12
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    It seems silly that I would have to even point out such a thing to people who pretend to be "edjamacated", but there is a simple statistical phenomenon that if you measure any quantity X, then the places with the highest X will also have the highest "X related Y".
    For example: take "pirates" and "dog walking"
    Certainly locations with the largest number of pirates are probably going to have the largest numbers of pirates who dog-walk.

    This video explains how this relates to "guns" and "homicides"
    https://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill2 View Post
    Maybe the author of the article needs to reference this thread here.

    I did not read the study, because I don't want to pay >$30 to do so. However, the article regarded the study as attempting to determine whether more guns equal less or more crime. The conclusion is the refutation of an argument that doesn't actually exist.

    In the first few paragraphs of the article Monuteaux is quoted as saying, "We found no support for the hypothesis that owning more guns leads to a drop or a reduction in violent crime". One cannot reach a valid conclusion by examining only the ownership rates of an inanimate object vs the actions of a highly variable segment of the population and their motivations.

    Hemenway even references something similar when quoted in this article. He said, "We know so little about gun training, we know so little about gun theft, we know some about self-defensive gun use but not really much". Not reading into his intent there, but this deficit is significant and telling. There is so much focus on statistical analysis of guns themselves, but little to nothing on the actual perpetrators. Without understanding the actors in violence throughout the country, we are left with this type of nonsense.

    Hemenway is not unbiased, of course. He thinks gun owners are wimps, and guns shouldn't exist. This fact doesn't negate the study, but it does lend some credence to the idea that he has an end goal in his studies.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christine View Post
    The statistics don't matter because 'murica.
    Based on some of the commentary on this tread, so true.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  15. #15
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    If there were no people, none of those statistics could exist, we need to get rid of people.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by motoricker View Post
    It seems silly that I would have to even point out such a thing to people who pretend to be "edjamacated", but there is a simple statistical phenomenon that if you measure any quantity X, then the places with the highest X will also have the highest "X related Y".
    For example: take "pirates" and "dog walking"
    Certainly locations with the largest number of pirates are probably going to have the largest numbers of pirates who dog-walk.

    This video explains how this relates to "guns" and "homicides"
    https://youtu.be/pELwCqz2JfE

    It seems silly, because it is silly.

    Your conjecture ignores inverse relationships (for starters); for instance, think of "number of pirates" and "number of eyes per capita." As pirate populations rise, so do the number of eye-patching wearers (assuming movie stereotypes are accurate), which means that eyes-per-capita declines.

    It's also ignoring the fact that certain relationships happen about as one would think they would, and are not merely "statistical phenomena." One would expect "guns" and "homicides" to be positively correlated, since plenty of other studies have shown that more guns correlates with more gun deaths. As you note, more pirates (or guns), more dog-walking pirates (or gun deaths).

    IOW, it doesn't seem to be the case that guns make things safer.

  17. #17
    xxl
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    Quote Originally Posted by obed View Post
    If there were no people, none of those statistics could exist, we need to get rid of people.

    Good idea!! It'll give us more for guns!!

  18. #18
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    IF people do not exist, people would not need more..
    and this whole "safer" bit... safer for who and who says that is an admiral goal?
    Seat belts and air bags make you safer unless they kill you.
    I am not really concerned about other folks being safer if I have to surrender rights and liberty to accomplish that... those tend to be fighting words.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    IOW, it doesn't seem to be the case that guns make things safer.
    Basing your response on these statistics, and with the ability to perceive and react to the impending danger, would you rather be armed with a gun while being attacked with one, or unarmed?

    Do you predict you would be safer with the gun, or less safe?

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by joker1656 View Post
    Basing your response on these statistics, and with the ability to perceive and react to the impending danger, would you rather be armed with a gun while being attacked with one, or unarmed?

    Do you predict you would be safer with the gun, or less safe?
    Gun Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

    Fact-check: A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  21. #21
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    You mean "admirable," not "admiral." Although I suspect an "admiral's goal" would be *more* guns.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xxl View Post
    IOW, it doesn't seem to be the case that guns make things safer.
    But neither is a valid refutation of the assertion that guns DO make things "safer".

    THAT is the point.

    "Safer"....from what ?

    I would love to live in a society in which the thought of owning a gun never even occurred to me. That would probably be a "safer" society, and there would be very few guns, if any. We all want utopia.
    But Utopia is a fantasy.
    If we live in the real world. Some people don't feel "safer" without a gun and it is a simple reality that violent crime exists. Depriving a law-abiding citizen of his inherent right of self-protection may create a statistical correlation to "safer", but is it really a justification for the removal of a personal right ?

    Remember a couple of key points:
    1. criminals won't turn in their guns just because a new gun control law may be passed.
    2. There are lots of ways of statistically making people "safer" if we deprive them of rights. I would venture a guess that drownings would diminish tremendously if all pools were closed and swimming were made illegal. But there would also still be lawbreakers who went swimming illegally and drowned. Alcohol prohibition is another example. Prohibition was considered a "failure" because most people didn't support it and some organized crime was created. But the statistics from the prohibition period show that the people were actually much "safer", with crime of all categories being sharply reduced. We all know how much crime is "alcohol related". But we are not willing to give up the "right" to drink.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Gun Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.

    Fact-check: A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
    #1: How much f that was gang-on-gang assault and murder ?
    #2: It is probably a lot "safer" to just be a good "assault victim" and take your beatings ?

  24. #24
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    no matter what you believe, you can find a study that will support it.

  25. #25
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    Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
    Fact-check:

    *** In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime

    *** In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

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