Tesla vs. Mercedes-Benz AMG Bi-Turbo - Page 2
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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    Suck on that, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Aston Marton or whatever else you've got.


    Tesla D: Speedy AWD Model S with second motor and limited autopilot


    So you had to quote all my almost two year old posts because.......?




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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    So you had to quote all my almost two year old posts because.......?
    That was quick.

    Because I felt like it.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



  3. #28
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    I have to wonder how much R&D was spent on the suspension by Tesla. My guess is, since the focus was not to make a world class handling sedan, probably not much in the overall scheme of things. It's a fairly simple thing to model a suspension in a program like WinGeo (even budget racers like me do it for their weekend cars) and pretty simple to collect data from sensors on a test mule and use it to tune the suspension, and I'm sure they did, but I'm going to guess if any compromises had to be made they were made in favor of the drive train. I'm sure the car is adequate in the handling department, but not stellar.

    Here is the model S at Buttonwillow. It's not a fast track and it seems to suffer in the turns. Understandable due to the tires. The main problem the Tesla is not competitive at the track, and probably never will be unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology. The Tesla will finish last in every race it enters because it will run out of power halfway through.

    The TESLARATI.com "48" Tesla at ButtonWillow Raceway 02-22-2014 - YouTube

    For contrast, an AMG C55 (not quite a perfect comparison but it's what I could find)

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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    I have to wonder how much R&D was spent on the suspension by Tesla. My guess is, since the focus was not to make a world class handling sedan, probably not much in the overall scheme of things. It's a fairly simple thing to model a suspension in a program like WinGeo (even budget racers like me do it for their weekend cars) and pretty simple to collect data from sensors on a test mule and use it to tune the suspension, and I'm sure they did, but I'm going to guess if any compromises had to be made they were made in favor of the drive train. I'm sure the car is adequate in the handling department, but not stellar.

    Here is the model S at Buttonwillow. It's not a fast track and it seems to suffer in the turns. Understandable due to the tires. The main problem the Tesla is not competitive at the track, and probably never will be unless there is a breakthrough in battery technology. The Tesla will finish last in every race it enters because it will run out of power halfway through.

    The TESLARATI.com "48" Tesla at ButtonWillow Raceway 02-22-2014 - YouTube

    For contrast, an AMG C55 (not quite a perfect comparison but it's what I could find)

    Most consumers are more wowed by 0-60 times. I doubt track prowess was Tesla's top priority.

  5. #30
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    I doubt most buyers are wowed by the Tesla's 0-60 times, since there are much quicker cars out there for the same or less money, sometimes much less. My guess is it's more about having a large luxury type sedan that is also an electric with a decent range.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    I doubt most buyers are wowed by the Tesla's 0-60 times, since there are much quicker cars out there for the same or less money, sometimes much less. My guess is it's more about having a large luxury type sedan that is also an electric with a decent range.
    The Model S is certainly not a car for most buyers. Obviously, with the D type Model S this even more so. None of the other cars in the same strata of the market are either.

    Tesla is rolling out new all-wheel drive equipped versions of its Model S (check out our review of the original here). The top of the line dual-motor equipped P85D has a measured 0 - 60 time of 3.2 seconds, which should put it among the fastest sedans ever when it starts shipping in December.
    Is this false?
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    The Model S is certainly not a car for most buyers. Obviously, with the D type Model S this even more so. None of the other cars in the same strata of the market are either.



    Is this false?
    AFAIK that's an unverified time supplied by the manufacturer.

    Pretty impressive time, but it's only 0-60. The quarter mile time is a leisurely 11.8 seconds, which is slower than the Panamera, RS7, AMG CLS63, AMG E63, and Challenger Hellcat.

    It's an impressive car, for sure, but still not an equal due to the range, which is much shorter in a performance capacity than the 300 miles .

    I just don't think anyone is going to be buying the car for its performance, or at least not as the primary reason. It has a much higher wow factor for the technology.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    AFAIK that's an unverified time supplied by the manufacturer.

    Pretty impressive time, but it's only 0-60. The quarter mile time is a leisurely 11.8 seconds, which is slower than the Panamera, RS7, AMG CLS63, AMG E63, and Challenger Hellcat.

    It's an impressive car, for sure, but still not an equal due to the range, which is much shorter in a performance capacity than the 300 miles .

    I just don't think anyone is going to be buying the car for its performance, or at least not as the primary reason. It has a much higher wow factor for the technology.
    One small thing going for the dual drive/all wheel system, if what Tesla claims is true, is that it's a bit more efficient than the single motor configuration. They say it adds about 10 miles in range per charge. Considering the massive price premium that isn't much - not so impressive! But if they scale D drive system with it's efficiency gain later so it becomes a standard rather than premium feature and roll into the lower priced Model 3 due to come out in 2017 that would be quite impressive.
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    I doubt most buyers are wowed by the Tesla's 0-60 times, since there are much quicker cars out there for the same or less money, sometimes much less. My guess is it's more about having a large luxury type sedan that is also an electric with a decent range.
    "Much quicker" - you are just splitting hairs when you are talking 0-60 times. I defy anybody without timing equipment to tell the difference between a car doing 0-60 in 3 seconds flat vs 3.2. The only thing that will be noticeably faster to 60 (to the occupants) is a full blown drag car on slicks. The quarter mile is (comparatively) slow because the electric motors run out of steam up top. But not too many people are going to be taking this car into the triple digits. In the real world, the Tesla is about as fast a street car as you will get.

    Those that just want a large luxury type sedan won't get the "D" version.

  10. #35
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    Tesla vs. Mercedes-Benz AMG Bi-Turbo

    11.8 was my quickest 1/4 mile time in my lowly rx7.. I thought it was pretty good at the time.. More runs at that time.. Just require a roll bar .. F' that
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post
    11.8 was my quickest 1/4 mile time in my lowly rx7.. I thought it was pretty good at the time.. More runs at that time.. Just require a roll bar .. F' that
    Actually, that is a good point. Most tracks won't let you run any faster without a roll cage. What is the point of a 10 second car if you can't legally drive it that fast on the street OR the strip?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nealric View Post
    Actually, that is a good point. Most tracks won't let you run any faster without a roll cage. What is the point of a 10 second car if you can't legally drive it that fast on the street OR the strip?
    What's the point of making a car that can exceed the highest legal speed limit in the country or in the whole global market?

    Apparently the all wheel or Dual drive model is more efficient and has better electronic traction control than with the single motor version. How the driver chooses to use the power is their choice.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    One small thing going for the dual drive/all wheel system, if what Tesla claims is true, is that it's a bit more efficient than the single motor configuration. They say it adds about 10 miles in range per charge. Considering the massive price premium that isn't much - not so impressive! But if they scale D drive system with it's efficiency gain later so it becomes a standard rather than premium feature and roll into the lower priced Model 3 due to come out in 2017 that would be quite impressive.
    They are at the forefront of this technology. This is revolutionary. And I think it only gets cheaper from here.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    They are at the forefront of this technology. This is revolutionary. And I think it only gets cheaper from here.
    Maybe one for me someday. 10 years or so.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    What's the point of making a car that can exceed the highest legal speed limit in the country or in the whole global market?

    Apparently the all wheel or Dual drive model is more efficient and has better electronic traction control than with the single motor version. How the driver chooses to use the power is their choice.
    So people are looking for a car that handles safely and well on high speed interstates? Allowable speeds, if unofficial, now seem to be around 80 mph, so a car that is geared for and remains responsive at 80 mph would be desirable.

    My buddy who got to test drive a Tesla a few years ago marveled at low end acceleration and handling, but he didn't take it on the highway. Good cars, like good bikes, perform well when ridden hard.

    My vote is still on the AMG. Notice how it caught and passed the Tesla at the end? Just like I did in my Austin Healey back in '69, with Pontiac GTOs and Shelby Mustangs. They were geared too low at the high end, seemed to me. On purpose probably, like that turkey Mercury I once owned that had a V6 engine but a governor that locked it out at 80 mph.

    I've always felt more secure in cars that feel and handle at 80 mph as well as they do at 60. 4 wheel drive is truly awesome. It just eats up the road, never inducing the feeling of imminent loss of control tracking around curves. The rear end follows the front end without a hint of skidding out or hydroplaning in hard rain. There's no understeer or oversteer, its just right.

    Someone could build a well balanced 4 WD electric car with a computer controlled motor on each wheel, delivering just the right amount of power to all four wheels, like the gas engine ones can do today. No drive shafts, no transmission. Seems entirely possible now with the state of computer tech. in cars. Is Tesla leading the way?

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    The rear end follows the front end without a hint of skidding out or hydroplaning in hard rain. There's no understeer or oversteer, its just right.
    Oh they have a tendency to understeer just like any other car at the limit. The WRXs and Evos that show up at the track in stock form understeer like pigs. They're designed to. Now, they handle a lot better in stock form than say, my Saturn, but they still understeer when overdriven.
    Whenever the legislators endeavour to take away and destroy the property of the people, or to reduce them to slavery under arbitrary power, they put themselves into a state of war with the people who are thereupon absolved from any further obedience, and are left to the common refuge which God hath provided for all men against force and violence - John Locke

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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fredrico View Post
    So people are looking for a car that handles safely and well on high speed interstates? Allowable speeds, if unofficial, now seem to be around 80 mph, so a car that is geared for and remains responsive at 80 mph would be desirable.

    My buddy who got to test drive a Tesla a few years ago marveled at low end acceleration and handling, but he didn't take it on the highway. Good cars, like good bikes, perform well when ridden hard.

    My vote is still on the AMG. Notice how it caught and passed the Tesla at the end? Just like I did in my Austin Healey back in '69, with Pontiac GTOs and Shelby Mustangs. They were geared too low at the high end, seemed to me. On purpose probably, like that turkey Mercury I once owned that had a V6 engine but a governor that locked it out at 80 mph.

    I've always felt more secure in cars that feel and handle at 80 mph as well as they do at 60. 4 wheel drive is truly awesome. It just eats up the road, never inducing the feeling of imminent loss of control tracking around curves. The rear end follows the front end without a hint of skidding out or hydroplaning in hard rain. There's no understeer or oversteer, its just right.

    Someone could build a well balanced 4 WD electric car with a computer controlled motor on each wheel, delivering just the right amount of power to all four wheels, like the gas engine ones can do today. No drive shafts, no transmission. Seems entirely possible now with the state of computer tech. in cars. Is Tesla leading the way?
    Honestly, for me, the best feature of the Tesla is that the stereo volume goes to 11.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy69 View Post
    Oh they have a tendency to understeer just like any other car at the limit. The WRXs and Evos that show up at the track in stock form understeer like pigs. They're designed to. Now, they handle a lot better in stock form than say, my Saturn, but they still understeer when overdriven.
    Yep. You're right.

  19. #44
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    The Tesla is really an awesome car. The only real drawback is when it's time for a pit stop. It can be quick charged to 80% in less then 30 minutes. While the Benz, and any gas powered car and be recharged to 100% in about 6 minutes. Not such a problem on daily driving to and from work, but the wife and I take a road trip once or twice a year and those long stops can really add hours to a drive

  20. #45
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    How Does Teslaís 'Ludicrous Mode' Stack Up Against Bugatti, Lamborghini? Sixty miles per hour in 2.8 seconds is crazy fast. Where does that put these Teslas in the pantheon of supercars?


    On Friday Tesla mastermind Elon Musk announced a new ďLudicrous ModeĒ for his electric Model S sedan and the upcoming Model X SUV. He promised that the new modeóa $10,000 optionówould push the car to 60 miles per hour in 2.8 seconds. He said it will get the SUV to 60mph in 3.3 seconds. Thatís serious speed, on par with supercars that are exponentially more expensive. If Musk can pull this off, itíll shoot him into the same stratosphere as Bugatti and Koenigsegg.

    Whatís more, Musk said heíll launch an all-new Roadster in four years. That one will have a ďmaximum plaidĒ speed modeóa reference to the cult favorite movie, Spaceballs. Who knows what max plaid is, but it sounds nuts.

    So how does Telsa stack up against other top high-speed cars in the world, both in terms of 0-60 and price tag?
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    I concur.... bMW knows how to engineer a chassis that blends comfort and handling... it's very hard to best the BMW....

    I'm waiting for Toyota to lend Lotus their Hybrid Synergy Drive.... something like a Elise hybrid or Evora hybrid would be cool
    Wasn't that the original Tesla?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NJBiker72 View Post
    Wasn't that the original Tesla?
    Original Tesla was all electric, he was saying hybrid version. Lotus already sources the engine from Toyota, they would just have to pick one from the hybrid rack instead.
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