Tesla vs. Mercedes-Benz AMG Bi-Turbo
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    Tesla vs. Mercedes-Benz AMG Bi-Turbo

    Note to mods - this thread would likely end up here, so let's skip to the chase....

    416hp New Tech upstart vs. 518hp Old Tech pinnacle of motordom, 0-110mph drag race.

    Beam me up, baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliner View Post
    Note to mods - this thread would likely end up here, so let's skip to the chase....

    416hp New Tech upstart vs. 518hp Old Tech pinnacle of motordom, 0-110mph drag race.

    This is in part why we're seeing new supercars coming out with a combination on lighter V8 engines combined with electric motors on all four wheels.

    I want to see that Tesla race that Mercedes on a twisty road course or track.
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    Of course the Tesla would win. Electric motors provide instant torque, whereas turbos have lag. A twin turbo setup reduces that lag greatly, but it's still there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    Of course the Tesla would win. Electric motors provide instant torque, whereas turbos have lag. A twin turbo setup reduces that lag greatly, but it's still there.
    Plus, with the way more weight is distributed at the wheels (motors) and under the floor (batteries), the Tesla would be at the advantage where there are challenging/twisty road handling situation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    Plus, with the way more weight is distributed at the wheels (motors) and under the floor (batteries), the Tesla would be at the advantage where there are challenging/twisty road handling situation.
    The Tesla would have the advantage in a straight line contest, on a tight twisty road or at a race track, the Benz would have the advantage. The Benz would have the better balanced chassis. The Tesla weighs about 4200lbs and is rear engine/rear wheel drive. The Benz is probably slightly heavier but better balance, better suspension, better tires.

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    um, yeah ..... 100% torque off the line for electric motor, as compared with much less low-end torque in the gas engine.

    Is there a point to this beyond something so obvious?
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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    The Tesla would have the advantage in a straight line contest, on a tight twisty road or at a race track, the Benz would have the advantage. The Benz would have the better balanced chassis. The Tesla weighs about 4200lbs and is rear engine/rear wheel drive. The Benz is probably slightly heavier but better balance, better suspension, better tires.
    It seems like you're assuming the Benz has the better suspension. How do you figure the Benz the better balance?

    Tires are changeable, who cares? Take your pick.
    Last edited by TerminatorX91; 01-25-2013 at 11:49 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    The Tesla would have the advantage in a straight line contest, on a tight twisty road or at a race track, the Benz would have the advantage. The Benz would have the better balanced chassis. The Tesla weighs about 4200lbs and is rear engine/rear wheel drive. The Benz is probably slightly heavier but better balance, better suspension, better tires.
    Scroll down to see a comparison table. Far from a head to head road course contest but based on the numbers I'd say the Tesla could more than hold it's own. World Exclusive! 2012 Tesla Model S Test and Range Verification - Motor Trend
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    I would not be so sure if I were you - the Tesla has a very low center of gravity and contrary to what you say, is well balanced.

    Beam me up, baby.

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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    The Tesla would have the advantage in a straight line contest, on a tight twisty road or at a race track, the Benz would have the advantage. The Benz would have the better balanced chassis. The Tesla weighs about 4200lbs and is rear engine/rear wheel drive. The Benz is probably slightly heavier but better balance, better suspension, better tires.
    Assuming that everything you said about the Benz is factual, how do we know the upgraded components aren't simply there to compensate for the extra weight?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starliner View Post
    416hp New Tech upstart vs. 518hp Old Tech pinnacle of [performance] motordom, 0-110mph drag race.
    Mercedes isn't the pinnacle of motordom

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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    ...and is rear engine/rear wheel drive...
    On a sort of related note: The 2015 Acura NSX supercar concept has a mid-mounted, V6 engine and three electric motors Ė one integrated with the V6 and two motors driving the front wheels. Through the use of three electric motors this will enable instant delivery of negative or positive torque to the front wheels during cornering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Mercedes isn't the pinnacle of motordom
    True. The top performance version of the Model S costs about $80K. I think that Mercedes costs about $90K. Which four door sedan that sells for less than $100K would you like to test it against?
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    True. The top performance version of the Model S costs about $80K. I think that Mercedes costs about $90K. Which four door sedan that sells for less than $100K would you like to test it against?
    Actually in real life the performance model S starts at $92,400 and is $102,000+ with mostly necessary options. Tesla is being sneaky on their website by listing the base price minus the $5k deposit you have to make first.

    The BMW M5 would be the obvious choice, perhaps an Audi RS6. What is the point of this thread, to somehow prove that electric is better? The Telsa is fantastic, but if you start driving it in a high speed competitive manner the range is going to drop tremendously, so not exactly useful performance if you are stranded on the side of the road.

    The only reason to buy one of these big high performance sedans is to get the cool racy bits that get one salivating, the performance is all similar enough that you wouldn't really be able to perceive the difference (it's more down to the driver) in the real world.

    If you really care about performance driving and want to go to the track, buy a proper sports car

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Actually in real life the performance model S starts at $92,400 and is $102,000+ with mostly necessary options. Tesla is being sneaky on their website by listing the base price minus the $5k deposit you have to make first.

    The BMW M5 would be the obvious choice, perhaps an Audi RS6. What is the point of this thread, to somehow prove that electric is better? The Telsa is fantastic, but if you start driving it in a high speed competitive manner the range is going to drop tremendously, so not exactly useful performance if you are stranded on the side of the road.

    The only reason to buy one of these big high performance sedans is to get the cool racy bits that get one salivating, the performance is all similar enough that you wouldn't really be able to perceive the difference (it's more down to the driver) in the real world.

    If you really care about performance driving and want to go to the track, buy a proper sports car

    OK.



    .....


    I suspect that the point is the Tesla is a damned fine option and quite capable of meeting most of the needs of anyone who drives like sane person on public roads, wants a high-end sedan and can afford any of the sedans available in that price range.

    I agree that if it's all about the track then get a proper high-performance supercar... How about a Bugatti Veyron?
    Last edited by TerminatorX91; 01-25-2013 at 02:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    OK.


    .....


    I suspect that the point is the Tesla is a damned fine option and quite capable of meeting most of the needs of anyone who drives like sane person on public roads, wants a high-end sedan and can afford any of the sedans available in that price range.

    I agree that if it's all about the track then get a proper high-performance supercar... How about a Bugatti Veyron?

    Yes, we already had discussed the other video. Straight line is but one part of being the "pinnacle" of performance cars, it's the whole package that goes beyond just the numbers or how fast a car is.

    The Tesla is a damn fine vehicle but being faster in a straight line doesn't mean much. AWD and a high torque electric motor is a recipe for a great launch.

    Veyron is a very fast supercar but not a proper sports car, much too big and heavy, it doesn't handle well



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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Yes, we already had discussed the other video. Straight line is but one part of being the "pinnacle" of performance cars, it's the whole package that goes beyond just the numbers or how fast a car is.

    The Tesla is a damn fine vehicle but being faster in a straight line doesn't mean much. AWD and a high torque electric motor is a recipe for a great launch.
    Well again, I think the Model S would handily beat the M5 on a twisty course.



    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Veyron is a very fast supercar but not a proper sports car, much too big and heavy, it doesn't handle well.
    A Veyron wouldn't be my choice either (I also don't like the design) but if you can afford one then you certainly can afford a 458, P1, 918 or whatever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    Well again, I think the Model S would handily beat the M5 on a twisty course.


    And again, I disagree, and the reports I've heard from my auto-journalist colleagues support that


    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    And again, I disagree, and the reports I've heard from my auto-journalist colleagues support that


    .

    I don't believe them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerminatorX91 View Post
    I don't believe them.

    You go girl!

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Yes, we already had discussed the other video. Straight line is but one part of being the "pinnacle" of performance cars, it's the whole package that goes beyond just the numbers or how fast a car is.

    The Tesla is a damn fine vehicle but being faster in a straight line doesn't mean much. AWD and a high torque electric motor is a recipe for a great launch.

    Veyron is a very fast supercar but not a proper sports car, much too big and heavy, it doesn't handle well



    .
    Fascinating, an all electric car that goes 300 miles at 55 mph on a single charge! But hell, lots of cars can do 0-60 mph in 6.2 seconds. Even my big V6 AWD sedan can do it in 7 seconds! And 5 or 7 speed automatic transmissions will accelerate very quickly at the start, plenty of torque in 1st gear! And as it goes up through 2nd, 3rd and 4th, solid acceleration right up to where it shifts into 5th at 60! Also, very smooth, very solid feel with the 4 wheel drive, accelerating as well as cornering! Confidence inspiring.

    Reading up on the Bugatti, awesome! 0-60 in 4 seconds, and that's just the start. 6th or 7th gears haven't even kicked in yet. I'd just love to go from 60 to 80 in two seconds, then upshift and continue on to 110 in another two seconds. They say the Bugatti hunkers down on the road the faster it goes. Suspension has to play a major role, also ESP, electronic modulation of torque on all four wheels.

    Mercedes Benz had very low first gears for a good jump off the line and 5 speeds and AWD computer controlled ESP ten years ago, so this is nothing new. Nonetheless, a car built light for great top speeds needs some special aerodynamics and suspension to stay on the road and not go airborne. A heavier car makes staying on the road a bit easier.

    Tesla S is a very pretty car! Love to try one out. A friend had an old electric sedan with a big motor with front wheel drive. It took off like a bandit, in one gear, from 0-60 in 6 or 7 seconds. Otherwise, it handled like a Saturn 4 door sedan.

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    This isn't a looker, but it's fun to watch on the quarter mile.


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    Tesla vs. Mercedes-Benz AMG Bi-Turbo

    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    And again, I disagree, and the reports I've heard from my auto-journalist colleagues support that


    .
    I concur.... bMW knows how to engineer a chassis that blends comfort and handling... it's very hard to best the BMW....

    I'm waiting for Toyota to lend Lotus their Hybrid Synergy Drive.... something like a Elise hybrid or Evora hybrid would be cool
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    Quote Originally Posted by SauronHimself View Post
    This isn't a looker, but it's fun to watch on the quarter mile.

    Funny, I was going to bring up the White Zombie, I had spent a few days with him back in 07 for a C&D article. He was still trying to get into the 11's back then



    Quote Originally Posted by tednugent View Post
    I concur.... bMW knows how to engineer a chassis that blends comfort and handling... it's very hard to best the BMW....

    I'm waiting for Toyota to lend Lotus their Hybrid Synergy Drive.... something like a Elise hybrid or Evora hybrid would be cool

    Or you can get the Tesla Roadster which is an electric Elise and a lot of fun

    Tesla had hired some Lotus chassis engineers to work on the Model S. It is very good and while the journalists I know have been been impressed, especially for Tesla's first "real" car, no one has been exclaiming that it is the M5 killer that TerminatorX91 is presenting it as

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by exracer View Post
    The Tesla would have the advantage in a straight line contest, on a tight twisty road or at a race track, the Benz would have the advantage. The Benz would have the better balanced chassis. The Tesla weighs about 4200lbs and is rear engine/rear wheel drive. The Benz is probably slightly heavier but better balance, better suspension, better tires.
    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Actually in real life the performance model S starts at $92,400 and is $102,000+ with mostly necessary options. Tesla is being sneaky on their website by listing the base price minus the $5k deposit you have to make first.

    The BMW M5 would be the obvious choice, perhaps an Audi RS6. What is the point of this thread, to somehow prove that electric is better? The Telsa is fantastic, but if you start driving it in a high speed competitive manner the range is going to drop tremendously, so not exactly useful performance if you are stranded on the side of the road.

    The only reason to buy one of these big high performance sedans is to get the cool racy bits that get one salivating, the performance is all similar enough that you wouldn't really be able to perceive the difference (it's more down to the driver) in the real world.

    If you really care about performance driving and want to go to the track, buy a proper sports car
    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Yes, we already had discussed the other video. Straight line is but one part of being the "pinnacle" of performance cars, it's the whole package that goes beyond just the numbers or how fast a car is.

    The Tesla is a damn fine vehicle but being faster in a straight line doesn't mean much. AWD and a high torque electric motor is a recipe for a great launch.

    Veyron is a very fast supercar but not a proper sports car, much too big and heavy, it doesn't handle well



    .
    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    And again, I disagree, and the reports I've heard from my auto-journalist colleagues support that


    .
    Quote Originally Posted by MoPho View Post
    Funny, I was going to bring up the White Zombie, I had spent a few days with him back in 07 for a C&D article. He was still trying to get into the 11's back then






    Or you can get the Tesla Roadster which is an electric Elise and a lot of fun

    Tesla had hired some Lotus chassis engineers to work on the Model S. It is very good and while the journalists I know have been been impressed, especially for Tesla's first "real" car, no one has been exclaiming that it is the M5 killer that TerminatorX91 is presenting it as

    .

    Suck on that, Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche, Aston Marton or whatever else you've got.


    Tesla D: Speedy AWD Model S with second motor and limited autopilot


    Tesla is rolling out new all-wheel drive equipped versions of its Model S (check out our review of the original here). The top of the line dual-motor equipped P85D has a measured 0 - 60 time of 3.2 seconds, which should put it among the fastest sedans ever when it starts shipping in December. According to Musk, the system is a "huge improvement" that actually adds efficiency over a single motor -- about 10 miles in range per charge. That's apparently because there's no shaft between the front and rear axles, and the motors constantly adjust output so well that it overcomes the weight of the second engine.

    Aside from the performance and handling upgrade of AWD (two other models with the tech will roll out early next year, dubbed 60D and 75D) Tesla is also introducing new driver assist features to match and surpass what others like Mercedes and Lexus are doing, like lane keeping and self-adjusting cruise control. Its new cars can read speed limit signs and adjust accordingly, and even change lanes by themselves when the driver activates the turn signal, all powered by a system of 12 sensors that see around the car. There's no word yet on how much the additions will cost. We're at the event in LA now, and will have more details for you as they're announced.

    Elon Musk is on stage right now, and according to him the additions are a bit more than assists (oh, and D stands for dual motor). Tesla is going to "push the limit" on what's legally allowed for self-driving cars. These new models can park themselves, and even (while on private property) summon the car, and it will slowly drive to where you are, or park itself in the garage! As Elon promised yesterday, this is already out there -- every car built in the last two weeks is already packing the sensors, and the autopilot features will be delivered in an OTA software update. To get the highest performance out of the P85D, owners will opt for "insane" mode.

    This is all driven by the ultrasonic sensors on the new cars, although he's not ready to call the autopilot features autonomous just yet. A new electromechanical braking system can bring things to a stop very quickly, and the cars will feature electrical power steering. Our own Nicole Lee is on site and is about to take a test drive, we'll have more impressions for you shortly.

    We'll have the test drive ride impressions for you shortly, but for now the interested among you can hit Tesla's website to price out a Model S equipped with dual motors and/or autopilot. Adding a second motor cranks up the price by $14,600, and autopilot comes as a part of the optional "tech" package that's $4,250.
    "Itís hard to win an argument with a smart person, but itís damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person." - Bill Murray



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