2019 TdF Rants
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 42

Thread: 2019 TdF Rants

  1. #1
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    897

    2019 TdF Rants

    I don't like the new polka dot jerseys. I think the older style looks much better:

    New style -
    pdj2.jpg

    Old style -
    pdj1.jpg

    Why does everyone have to mention every time they say his name that George Bennett is a kiwi? (apologies to Kiwisimon!)

    Simon Yates - Hey, the 1980s called and they want their eyewear back. I may have to start referring to you as Flea or The Fly.
    pdj3.jpg

    Overall, I think this is the BEST TdF in years, possibly decades, despite the two shortened stages. I think the organizers are taking cues from the other grand tours to make it more exciting up to the day before they arrive in Paris. But sadly, I think we're going to see an Ineos team next year that can dominate at an even higher level than what we've seen before.
    Last edited by ogre; 07-27-2019 at 08:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Russian Troll Farmer
    Reputation: No Time Toulouse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    2,333
    What I can't help wondering is this: had it not been for the weather and road condition on stages 19 and 20, would Bernal still have the maillot jaune ? He still would've been in the top 10, and would still be in the maillot blanc, but I really think that the strategy for stage 19 was to let Bernal take the Col d'Iseral, then have him support Thomas up the final climb. The fact that he got a nearly 2 minute lead on the stage just before it was stopped must be one of the most fortunate coincidences in TdF history.
    "L'enfer, c'est les autres"

  3. #3
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    What I can't help wondering is this: had it not been for the weather and road condition on stages 19 and 20, would Bernal still have the maillot jaune ? He still would've been in the top 10, and would still be in the maillot blanc, but I really think that the strategy for stage 19 was to let Bernal take the Col d'Iseral, then have him support Thomas up the final climb. The fact that he got a nearly 2 minute lead on the stage just before it was stopped must be one of the most fortunate coincidences in TdF history.
    I actually believe the opposite. He probably would have increased his lead and Thomas said the same thing himself. Nobody but Simon Yates looked like they could climb with him at this point in the TdF.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  4. #4
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: BCSaltchucker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    2,081
    I agree, Bernal was dominant ont he climbs, the only top GC hopeful to make a proper breakaway stick. He would be working alone in the transition to the final climb that day though, while Thomas had a small group to work with. We'll never know if Thomas had saved something for the final climb or not. But he secured his 2nd place the next day anyways.

    The real controversy is the lack of a proper ITT in this race. This was an enormous gift to the Colombians. Not saying it was the wrong way to do it as I refuse to watch time trials, but in terms of Tour tradition, this was a huge change in the variables tilted away from the pure GC guys to the pure climbers.
    Faith is pretending to know things you don't know

  5. #5
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    I agree, Bernal was dominant ont he climbs, the only top GC hopeful to make a proper breakaway stick. He would be working alone in the transition to the final climb that day though, while Thomas had a small group to work with. We'll never know if Thomas had saved something for the final climb or not. But he secured his 2nd place the next day anyways.

    The real controversy is the lack of a proper ITT in this race. This was an enormous gift to the Colombians. Not saying it was the wrong way to do it as I refuse to watch time trials, but in terms of Tour tradition, this was a huge change in the variables tilted away from the pure GC guys to the pure climbers.
    I agree, itís a big change. I think races are trying to find ways to end the Sky and time trial dominance that can make stage races a bit of a bore to watch. The best thing stage races have going for them is the climbing and descents and I think races are trying to find ways to make those things more relevant again.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  6. #6
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by BCSaltchucker View Post
    The real controversy is the lack of a proper ITT in this race. This was an enormous gift ... to the pure climbers.
    First week should include a mountain top finish stage and the last day an ITT. Never happen however as this conflict with the TdF business model.

    30 years ago Lemond won the great tour of all-time with a ITT.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  7. #7
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: The Weasel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    693
    Not a fan of the ITT myself, but if they're going to hand the win to a climber, then one year they should have no climbing and give it to a sprinter/race animator/break away guy.
    I believe the children are the future. Teach them well and let them lead the way.

  8. #8
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel View Post
    Not a fan of the ITT myself, but if they're going to hand the win to a climber, then one year they should have no climbing and give it to a sprinter/race animator/break away guy.
    Those races already exist. They are called the Classics, the Hammer Series, the semi-Classics, and criteriums. I love them btw. What you are describing is never going to happen in the grand tours though. Those races are about showcasing the mountains and the racers that perform best there. Always pretty much have been and probably always will be.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  9. #9
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Oct 2017
    Posts
    620
    You don't have to be a climbing specialist to win the tour, although it certainly helps.

    A guy like Doumolin, who is a TT specialist, could potentially win. He and his team just have to be good enough at the TT disciplines to make up for the losses in the mountains. Doumolin is also a pretty good climber for his size.

    Geraint Thomas won last year, and while he's a pretty good climber, I don't think you would consider him a specialist.
    Last edited by Finx; 07-29-2019 at 11:07 AM.

  10. #10
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by Finx View Post
    You don't have to be a climbing specialist to win the tour, although it certainly helps.

    A guy like Doumolin, who is a TT specialist, could potentially win. He and his team just have to be good enough at the TT disciplines to make up for the losses in the mountains. Doumolin is also a pretty good climber for his size.

    Geraint Thomas won last year, and while he's a pretty good climber, I don't think you would consider him a specialist.
    It all depends on the course layout. Dumoulin didnít start winning big until he lost weight and became a better climber. Same with Wiggins and Geraint. Grand tours can be set up in a way that strong time trialing climbers can win and that has been the fad for the last five years or so, but seems to changing now. All you have to do is look at this yearís Giro and TdF for evidence. Who won those races? Pure time trialists like Tony Martin, Campenaerts, Rohan Dennis, and even Cancellara have been too heavy to challenge the good climbers for the overall. Thatís just the way it is.
    Last edited by Rashadabd; 07-29-2019 at 11:18 AM.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  11. #11
    Proud luddite
    Reputation: azpeterb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    6,994
    I was sick of Skye dominating and was looking forward to the team disbanding....but along comes Ineos and now there is no end in sight. Four grand tour winners on the same team...are you kidding me? Hopefully they'll get tired of competing against each other for grand tour wins and will sign with other teams to be their #1's.

    On a related note, I wonder how Froome is going to be when he returns to racing. Pretty severe injuries and he's getting on in years....will he regain his past form?

  12. #12
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by The Weasel View Post
    Not a fan of the ITT myself, but if they're going to hand the win to a climber, then one year they should have no climbing and give it to a sprinter/race animator/break away guy.
    Well there are "generally" two different types of stages to gain time: "race of truth" time trials and the mountain stages.* If you have five mountain stages and one TT, it is obvious who has the vantage.

    I guessing now but there must be some financial reason(s) the Tour/Grio/Vuelta organizers favor MT over TT.

    Historically many of the prior greats (Jacques, Eddie, Bernard, Greg, Laurent, Miguel, some guy named Lance, Bradley, and even Contador as he matured, could do both very/very well and saw this as necessary to win.

    No slam on Egar --- fantastic win he deserved and nice to have a new bright star from a new region on the planet. But a little more balance (frequency and when they would occur during a three week tour) wouldn't be a bad thing to me. I'll leave it up to you tour wizard to calculate the TT distance and time gained on MT stages if you feel inclined to explore a possible alternative to 2020.
    .
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  13. #13
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,280
    forget ITT! boring as hell.

    heavily biased ITT could only lead to ONE formula, and that formula is to seek for a TT guy who can somewhat climb in mountains. This was the case of Wiggins, Froome, Doumulin. And this formula will lead to "Sky train" to shepard their "TT guy" up mountains by using smaller Columbian specialists. Small climbers will never going to get a chance to shine under such formula. Had Froome been in this Tour, Bernal would definitely be forced to be his domestique ***** no doubt.

  14. #14
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    forget ITT! boring as hell.

    heavily biased ITT could only lead to ONE formula, and that formula is to seek for a TT guy who can somewhat climb in mountains. This was the case of Wiggins, Froome, Doumulin. And this formula will lead to "Sky train" to shepard their "TT guy" up mountains by using smaller Columbian specialists. Small climbers will never going to get a chance to shine under such formula. Had Froome been in this Tour, Bernal would definitely be forced to be his domestique ***** no doubt.
    History says youíre right. Anyone that prefers the TdFs of the last five years over this yearís is one sick puppy in my book.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  15. #15
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    forget ITT! boring as hell.

    heavily biased ITT could only lead to ONE formula, and that formula is to seek for a TT guy who can somewhat climb in mountains. This was the case of Wiggins, Froome, Doumulin. And this formula will lead to "Sky train" to shepard their "TT guy" up mountains by using smaller Columbian specialists. Small climbers will never going to get a chance to shine under such formula. Had Froome been in this Tour, Bernal would definitely be forced to be his domestique ***** no doubt.

    Agree --- its now a beauty contest based on the map.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  16. #16
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    If you donít like watching bikes being raced up and down mountains, why in the world would you follow grand tours like the TdF??? If you love flat races, check out some crits. Love breakaways, cobbled roads, and punchy climbs up shorter hills, watch the Classics and other one day races each spring. If you are in love with time trials, maybe you should explore track racing, triathlon, or the hour record. Do you but donít try to argue that stage races should be something other than what they are....
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  17. #17
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    If you donít like watching bikes being raced up and down mountains, why in the world would you follow grand tours like the TdF??? If you love flat races, check out some crits. Love breakaways, cobbled roads, and punchy climbs up shorter hills, watch the Classics and other one day races each spring. If you are in love with time trials, maybe you should explore track racing, triathlon, or the hour record. Do you but donít try to argue that stage races should be something other than what they are....
    Your opinion is noted. I didn't say I don't care for watching bikes racing up and down mountains. Obviously you don't want the TdF to be anything more then a bike racing based upon climbing. That my friend is limited in scope, and contrary to history.

    I disagree and believe the greats like Bernard, Jacques, Eddie, Miguel and others standing on the pantheon of cycling would join with me. Historically the Tour represented the zenith of bike racing --- a kind of Decathlon --- with a variety of stages and with time gained and lost primary in the long (or steep) time trials, as well as mountain stages. If the Tour just is about going up and down mountains, it runs the risk of becoming the NBA --- not need to watch the entire game, just the last stage, i.e., 2 minutes.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  18. #18
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: Wookiebiker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    6,584
    Quote Originally Posted by No Time Toulouse View Post
    What I can't help wondering is this: had it not been for the weather and road condition on stages 19 and 20, would Bernal still have the maillot jaune ? He still would've been in the top 10, and would still be in the maillot blanc, but I really think that the strategy for stage 19 was to let Bernal take the Col d'Iseral, then have him support Thomas up the final climb. The fact that he got a nearly 2 minute lead on the stage just before it was stopped must be one of the most fortunate coincidences in TdF history.
    I think Bernal would have kept going Ö Thomas would have been the back up plan, if they caught Bernal, he would have attacked as they had options at that point.

    The saddest part was watching Pinot go out, one has to wonder if Bernal could have dropped him like he did the others Ö could have been France's first win in 24 years (?) and he knew it. Truly sad to watch.
    Snakebit: "How many times do I have to tell you that I don't have a source? I don't make a note of everything I see or hear on the internet and you don't have to take my word for it."

  19. #19
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    Your opinion is noted. I didn't say I don't care for watching bikes racing up and down mountains. Obviously you don't want the TdF to be anything more then a bike racing based upon climbing. That my friend is limited in scope, and contrary to history.

    I disagree and believe the greats like Bernard, Jacques, Eddie, Miguel and others standing on the pantheon of cycling would join with me. Historically the Tour represented the zenith of bike racing --- a kind of Decathlon --- with a variety of stages and with time gained and lost primary in the long (or steep) time trials, as well as mountain stages. If the Tour just is about going up and down mountains, it runs the risk of becoming the NBA --- not need to watch the entire game, just the last stage, i.e., 2 minutes.
    Sorry, but thatís not the modern TdF with television coverage and tons of competition from other sports. They clearly still provide a variety of stages, but the focus, the climax, has been and always will be racing in the mountains. The same can be be said of the Vuelta and Giro. You watch because you love bike racing. You watch because you love the views and the history. You watch because you get a kick out watching people do things you only wish you could. You watch because of the drama that unfolds. The fans lined up and down mountain roads running and cheering alongside exhausted climbers might chuckle at you and Merckx. The climbs like Ventoux and the Galiber are the key moments they love and tune in to see. Ironically, I agree with you about whether this model of racing is sustainable from an entertainment standpoint, but that is true of all professional bike racing in my opinion and the topic is already covered by another thread.

    Modern grand tours are what they are and the mountains are core of the show. I firmly believe they are more entertaining when you shift the focus back in that direction like the first two grand tours did this year and like the Vuelta has been doing for some time. Not liking that is ok, but your opinion is probably in the minority. People are raving about how great this TdF was because it was wide open and the mountain stages mattered again. It wasnít over after a couple of ITT stages and being raced defensively. If you want to return to that, if those are your glory days, I think many of us will pass. Give me this TdF over that predictable mess any day. I am confident I am not alone in that assessment. Sorry not sorry.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  20. #20
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by Rashadabd View Post
    Sorry, but thatís not the modern TdF with television coverage and tons of competition from other sports. They clearly still provide a variety of stages, but the focus, the climax, has been and always will be racing in the mountains. The same can be be said of the Vuelta and Giro. You watch because you love bike racing. You watch because you love the views and the history. You watch because you get a kick out watching people do things you only wish you could. You watch because of the drama that unfolds. The fans lined up and down mountain roads running and cheering alongside exhausted climbers might chuckle at you and Merckx. The climbs like Ventoux and the Galiber are the key moments they love and tune in to see. Ironically, I agree with you about whether this model of racing is sustainable from an entertainment standpoint, but that is true of all professional bike racing in my opinion and the topic is already covered by another thread.

    Modern grand tours are what they are and the mountains are core of the show. I firmly believe they are more entertaining when you shift the focus back in that direction like the first two grand tours did this year and like the Vuelta has been doing for some time. Not liking that is ok, but your opinion is probably in the minority. People are raving about how great this TdF was because it was wide open and the mountain stages mattered again. It wasnít over after a couple of ITT stages and being raced defensively. If you want to return to that, if those are your glory days, I think many of us will pass. Give me this TdF over that predictable mess any day. I am confident I am not alone in that assessment. Sorry not sorry.
    Yes --- modern by itself is no substitute for superior. Declaring the one minute individual winner of the Tour with five mountain stage and not two or even one individual "race of truth" may be made for TV entertainment but is it superior, for example to 1989, 2001 or 2018 Tour de France events? And given some of the comments about the death of pro cycling, raising issues about the TdF and future improvements, revisions, tweeks, are necessary in a thread titled "rants" not "apologies": For example:

    * The Tours and week long races where nobody is racing but everybody is protecting their position suck.

    * Do I enjoy it sure, but I prefer the one day races to the stage races. The TdF being my least favorite race to watch. As for the flat sprint stages, well let me know where there are 20k or less to go. The rest isn't worth bothering to watch.

    * Pro cycling isn't as interesting for me as it was 10-15 years ago... It's loosing its appeal. Don't get me wrong, I still look up YouTube highlights daily... But for the UCI to get me watching 100+ miles a day, that is a lot to ask for.

    * TDF = Boring AF. No parity at all in the teams.

    * Now the race is decided in the transfer season when the biggest money team compiles it's roster, no hint of competition in the race, The domestiques break down all the other teams and the leader rolls up time on each mountain stage. Just a boring race that has been no fun to watch since Wiggins won it.

    ******************************

    TV demand for the Tour de France: the importance of stage characteristics versus outcome uncertainty, patriotism and doping, Daam Van Reeth, Hogeschool-Universiteit Brussel.

    The model shows mountain stages and weekend stages boost TV interest significantly, while time trial stages lead to an important drop in TV viewership.

    https://afse2015.sciencesconf.org/61384/document

    *********************************
    So, in summary, the TdF has become a "made for TV" event with many viewers limiting the viewing "a stage of a stage" and five minutes of YouTube highlights. For better or worst, in the USA the TdF has become a "made for subscription TV" event. As an event the TdF has increasingly cemented itself into the "strongest team win" mode with greater individual/team winner predictability. ITT stages have smaller TV viewing audiences then mountain and/or weekend stage broadcasts .

    In 2019 the TdF did not have a non-team stage commonly referred to as an individual time trial. It was an exciting Tour with a new young star climber, coming from the strongest team, and was a successful made for TV entertainment. You liked it.

    I would have preferred to scrape the TTT and have two ITT's, with one following the mountain stages as is common for the Giro and Vuelta. But this would be contrary to TV ratings and revenue.
    Last edited by troutmd; 07-30-2019 at 05:32 AM.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  21. #21
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,773
    I actually agree with some of what you said there. I prefer Classics and one day races to stage racing too. Seems purer on some level. Again, yes I think what we saw this year is superior from a fan perspective than the last 5+ years of the TdF have been. The financial and roster stacking stuff is a problem for the whole sport and not just the TdF and I also despise it. The TdF has historically been my least favorite grand tour these last 8 or so years as well, but I have to admit this one ended up being a lot of fun. TTs can be cool as a change a pace in my opinion, but you overemphasize them and you play right into the hands of Ineos and run the risk of creating one of the most boring sports spectacles on the planet. Agree with a number of the points you made though.
    Every climb has its end, for verily with difficulty there is relief...

  22. #22
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    2,750
    Quote Originally Posted by troutmd View Post
    So, in summary, the TdF has become a "made for TV" event with many viewers limiting the viewing "a stage of a stage" and five minutes of YouTube highlights. For better or worst, in the USA the TdF has become a "made for subscription TV" event. As an event the TdF has increasingly cemented itself into the "strongest team win" mode with greater individual/team winner predictability. ITT stages have smaller TV viewing audiences then mountain and/or weekend stage broadcasts .
    I find it nice to see the beautiful landscape and buildings they show every # minutes intervals. That experience has been enhanced now by HD TV.

  23. #23
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation:
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    6,280
    People watch grand tour because they want to see mountain attacks. Take away the TT's and you'll have some flatlanders whinning. But takeaway the mountains and it's a dead Tour. Moutain attacks are like crucial to the Tour. It's THE reason why a supreme doper like Lance is still relatively relevant and popular,,, because people still remember him for his mountain attacks and they're willing to see past his doping. Same reason why people like Contador, for his wicked solo out of the saddle mountain attacks.

    Wiggins won the Tour on his TT ability, but nobody will remember him for his attacks (there weren't any), they remember him because of the Sky.

    And Contador is right, Froome without Sky is not the same. That's how much Froome and Sky's formula to winning are linked.

  24. #24
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: troutmd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Posts
    24,595
    Quote Originally Posted by azpeterb View Post
    I was sick of Skye dominating.
    I suspect there are others who share that thought --- many of whom are French.

    So run the 2019 Tour in reverse. Sky (or whatever their name) wins big in the mountain stages during the first week or 1/3 of the tour. Then the smaller French team (and others) whittle away stage after stage forcing Sky et al to defend day after day after day in blazing 40C temps and unpredictable cross winds. Leave the 20th stage for the traditional 50K ITT before the parade lap on Champs.

    The excitement of the one day Classics but for two weeks in a new and modern format leaving the good old say in the dust.

    If people want entertainment and less predictability, I say give it to them by making every stage count.
    I am 100% convinced the internet and social media are not the salvation to human civility.

  25. #25
    RoadBikeReview Member
    Reputation: upstateSC-rider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,657
    One of my rants/thoughts would be having the polka dot jersey actually go to rider that can actually climb the fastest...Seeing bardet being dropped by domestiques on the last day was pretty sad. I understand anyone can have a bad day but would rather see cumulative KOM times, so to speak, on cat 3 and above climbs.
    Another one of my rants is skyneos, pretty much the NY Yankees of cycling. I think having all of those first-string gc riders on one team will bite them in the a$$...I can, at least, hope.
    In reference to the Assault on Mt Mitchell...
    Quote Originally Posted by merckx56
    The easier solution is to find a biker bar in Spartanburg the night before, go in and pick a fight. The ass-whipping you'll get will be far less painful than the one Mitchell will give you the next day!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. RBR TdF 2019 Predictions! Post by Start Time 2019
    By PJay in forum Pro Cycling - Tour de France
    Replies: 18
    Last Post: 07-27-2019, 03:08 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-16-2018, 04:14 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-16-2018, 04:12 PM
  4. 2019 Argon 18 Dark Matter vs. 2019 Canyon Grail cyclocross bike
    By hartley1 in forum General Cycling Discussion
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-13-2018, 01:23 PM
  5. 2019 Argon 18 Dark Matter vs. 2019 Canyon Grail cyclocross bike
    By hartley1 in forum New York - New Jersey
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-13-2018, 12:00 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

THE SITE

ABOUT ROADBIKEREVIEW

VISIT US AT

© Copyright 2019 VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.