Lemond vs. Lance: It's getting nuclear
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  1. #1

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    Lemond vs. Lance: It's getting nuclear

    This Lance vs. Lemond thing is getting ugly. Check out these excepts from OTL to be broadcast on Sunday. We're talking threats about Lemond's character and his business interests. They showed clips on the 6 p.m. ET SportsCenter, so I missed it already here in the Midwest. This is going to get much, much uglier. How long before the media tries to get Kristin or Kevin Livingston to say something about Lance and doping.

    Plus, remember the rift between Lance/Postal and Cedric Vasseur (who's got problems of his own in this regard)? He apparently flipped off Le Boss and his name has been mud in the peleton ever since. I wonder if he will be next to come out with allegations.

    Read this:?*


    ESPN.com

    A decade before the emergence of Lance Armstrong, Greg Lemond rose to prominence as America's first mainstream cyclist.


    Lemond burst onto the national scene with his victory at the Tour de France in 1986, becoming the first American to win cycling's most prestigious event. Almost killed in a hunting accident a year later, Lemond recovered to return to cycling and, in 1989, grabbed the Tour de France's most dramtic win, when he used a blistering final-day ride to overtake France's Laurent Fignon to win the event by eight seconds -- the closest finish ever. Lemond cemented his status in the cycling world when he repeated as champ in 1990.


    Now, as Armstrong is threatening to claim his record sixth straight Tour de France title, Lemond speaks with ESPN's Outside the Lines (segments airing Friday on SportsCenter at 6 p.m. ET and in its entirety Sunday at 9:30 a.m. ET) in his first public interview since his 2001 statements questioning Armstrong's relationship with a controversial Italian doctor now on trial for doping.


    "If [Armstrong's] clean, it's the greatest comeback. And if he's not, then it's the greatest fraud," Lemond said.


    Lemond also discussed the aftermath of his 2001 statements, including receiving an angry phone call from Armstrong. In the call, Lemond claims that Armstrong said that doping was rampant in cycling and threatened to spread rumors that Lemond doped as a rider.


    "He basically said 'I could find 10 people that will say you took EPO'," Lemond said. "He basically said 'you know, come on, everybody's done it,' basically kind of like 'hey everybody, EPO's fairly common.' "


    Lemond also claims that Armstrong's camp threatened his business interests.


    "The week after, I got multiple people that were on Lance ... Lance's camp, basically saying 'you better be quiet,' and I was quiet for three years," Lemond said. "I have a business ... I have bikes that are sold ... and I was told that my sales might not be doing too well if ... just the publicity, the negative publicity."


    Reached in France, Armstrong expressed regret about Lemond's assertions.


    "Greg's comments are unfortunate because Greg was an idol of mine, but was an idol of everybody in this race," he said. ... This isn't the first time. It's been four years that the shots have been lobbed across the Atlantic when we are over here trying to do good work. We've proven time in and time out that we were clean."

  2. #2

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    Of course!

    Lemond is entitled, nay obliged, to raise obvious questions that impugn another rider's name and cast a shadow over the accomplishments that are his bread and butter. How dare Lance's people retaliate by threatening reprecussions for Lemond's biusiness intersts.

    "(Lance) basically said. . ." What a laugh. Lemond spins Lance's reactions with such tenacity, there is no way he could stand up straight if he wasn't doping.

    "If [Armstrong's] clean, it's the greatest comeback. . ." And one more Lemond claim to fame overshadowed.

    Can't Lemond be satisfied with being the sole rider able to win by virtue of his exceptional conditioning and natural talents? Sheesh.

  3. #3
    Who's your daddy?
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    What does Trek think about this whole thing. Lance is Trek's boy and Trek owns Lemond bikes. You think someone from Trek would tap Greg on the shoulder and say, "What's you F'ing problem?"

    george
    Central Valley California
    www.trogspace.com

  4. #4

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    I am on Lemonds side

    Here is why:
    1. He feels as though Lance is unfairly attacking him and he has the balls to stand up for himself.

    2. He wants professional cycling to be drug free.

    3. He is/was a great champion, knows what it takes, and in his mind was screwed out of a victory in 91 due to the infiltration of EPO.

    Nevertheless, an argument could certainly be made that he should remain quiet. At least for the sake of his business interests. Anyone who knows him, knows him to be a great guy and very friendly celebrity who graciously gives himself to his fans.

    Has the press told us of the blatant accusations Lance has made towards Greg?

  5. #5

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    It ENRAGES ME to think that one guy's

    statements can be potentially damaging even though they are based on no credible evidence other than "Lemond claims". I seriously doubt Lance would have ever implied that "drugs are rampant" in a conversation to a guy who already made public statements against him. I mean, Lance is not a retard.
    Do I know for sure that Lance isn't on drugs? NO, but I do know for sure that he has never been caught. How do you prove a negative? I have never killed anyone, but if someone accused me of killing a guy 10 years ago in Tahiti ( I have never been there), how can I prove I didn't? Point is that there are an infinite amount of potential accusations anyone can make about anyone else and unless you have the proof, GREG, KEEP YOU $%#KING MOUTH SHUT. Greg wasn't whining about Lance untill he won three and four. Think about it you cry baby.




    Quote Originally Posted by george_da_trog
    What does Trek think about this whole thing. Lance is Trek's boy and Trek owns Lemond bikes. You think someone from Trek would tap Greg on the shoulder and say, "What's you F'ing problem?"

    george

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    Greg was right.

    It sucks to hear it, but Greg was right with what he's said. He may not be popular on this board, but historically leaders haven't been popular for speaking out and doing the right thing no matter what the public perception was.

    I was once a big supporter of Lance Armstrong, but all these allegations add up. Its equally ridiculous that people want to dismiss EVERYTHING anybody has to say if it has to do with Lance and drugs. From old teamates Greg Strock, Stephen Swart, and others, to the USPS team physiotherapist (whom people on this board called b*itch), to a former team physician with Motorola, USPS, whatever. Man NO WAY all these people are covertly tied into some devious plan to destroy cycling. No way.

  7. #7

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    I am Greg's side too.

    This goes back much farther than the newbie cycling fans realize like the other guy pointed out. Greg has been an ardent supporter of a drug-free peloton and him being so close to the pro cycling, he knows a lot of stuff that the internet joes do not and alot that they do not want to hear.

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    innocent until proven guilty

    What happened to the concept of proof. Lance is one of the most tested athlete's in the world. he get's unannounced visit at home for testing. If he was cheating he would have been caught by now (based on law of averages). Why can't folks beleive that he can win without drugs. Those who assert that he takes or has taken drugs should prove it or shut up. These accusations are nothing but hot air otherwise. All they have done is made Lance look bad and make him angry. I think that's great for Lance as he is going to be even more motivated to win this one and hopefully the next TDF too.

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    I agree with innocent until proven guilty. I respect Lemond, and I think he was a true champion, a great cyclist. However, I think he needs to keep quiet and quit "Lance Bashing". If something comes to prove otherwise, then by all means go after it, and state your opinion. But to make accusations and that is all they are then that shows lack of class.

  10. #10

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    Yep.

    No way several people can be wrong!

  11. #11

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    lance bashing?

    Lance should quit bashing Greg also.

    they still can't test for EPO can they? What is Lance's EPO count? Is it right at the upper limit? I don't know, but I would like to. That would some good evidence eh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by x-wing fighter
    Lance should quit bashing Greg also.
    You do know that Lemond started all this *****ing dont you? No one was saying **** (certainly Armstrong was not talking trash about Lemond completely unprovoked) until Greg opened up his bitter face.

  13. #13
    mgp
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    Lemond is bitter. Plain and simple. Was it EPO that made him fat and unmotivated in 1991? Come on, now. For those of us who were die hard Lemond fans back in the day (much more so than we are Lance fans), can't you remember thinking in May/June of 1990 through his retirement in 1994 "damn, Greg, you better get in shape!" It was shades of Ullrich. Lemond was 15-20 pounds overweight and way undertrained. EPO is a convenient excuse for him. Was *every* team other than Z really on EPO when he lost? How ridiculous does that sound. Maybe, just maybe, the European training method of taking the winter off was on the way out, and the new guard realized that you had to bust your hump in the off season.

    I don't think that everyone who is venting about this is a crazy Lance fanatic. I think it's more and expression of disappointment in slanderous accusations made by a cycling legend from the past. Where is the evidence? To date, I haven't seen or heard anything that comes close to convincing me. Unless you can prove it, keep your hole shut. Now we have a "Motorola team doctor" making accusations. Yet HE WASN'T THE TEAM DOCTOR WHEN LANCE WAS THERE! Doesn't this seem a little silly.

    Is Lance doping now? Doubtful. There are plenty of ways to achieve the same end result. A hypobaric tent is one legal way (and Lance and others readily admit to use).

    Did Lance dope in the past? I hope not, but it wouldn't surprise me if he did pre-cancer and maybe even his first year or two post-cancer. It doesn't seem like anyone knows for sure, or has offered convincing evidence of it. To be putting out conclusive statements that he is/was based soley on hearsay is just irresponsible. I think this is why many of us are getting so irritated with this.

    Think back to Lemond's comeback in 1989. How would you have reacted if every day Lemond faced accusations of doping? Come on, he was an avid cross-country skier in the off-season. Everyone knows that cross-country skiers did and still do lead the way in innovative new doping methods. Maybe he picked up blood packing from a training buddy. Eh?

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    What's more, why are none of these accusers offering any contradiction to the fact that when he was 15-16, Lance was kicking grown men's a$$es in triathlons? Why was he asked to take part in the U.S. Olympic Amateur team at such a young age?

    Let's review the facts about Armstrong:

    • as a young triathlete, he was tested and found to have a one-in-a-million gift of aerobic threshold i.e. low resting heart rate, incredibly efficient heart and VO2 max lung/oxygen capacity. PLUS, his body produces less lactic acid than most other endurance athletes.

    • Lance has commented about the experimental drug soup that literally saved his life. He also admitted to using a variant/form of EPO during his treatments and to counter the effects of chemo. If there is any debate at all, it should be regarding his dominant performance in 1999's Tour.

    • post-cancer, his body changed physically. By using experimental treatments, he was able to save the effect of cancer treatments upon his lungs — which othewise certainly would have ended his competitive career. Plus, he stopped hotdogging, stopped relying on talent alone, got humble and started training his butt off.

    • From the mid-point of the 1999 Tour, Armstrong became the most queried, tested rider in the peleton. If he can find a way to dope while avoiding getting caught with all of those tests over the last six years, he's the smartest athlete on the planet (in terms of avoiding getting busted)

    I've only one question besides wanting to see proof he is indeed doping (innocent until proven guilty) and that is this: does the IOC/USOC have more advanced drug testing procedures than Le Tour and the UCI? If so, there may be reason to question if that was a factor in Lance declining his US Olympic Cycling Team spot.

    But if this guy has been a genetic freak of nature since he was a kid, why wouldn't he retain those capabilities as a seasoned professional?

  15. #15

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    Talking Hypobaric my azz!

    Quote Originally Posted by mgp
    Is Lance doping now? Doubtful. There are plenty of ways to achieve the same end result. A hypobaric tent is one legal way (and Lance and others readily admit to use).

    HahAHAH! Rrrrrrrr-ight buddy. All that an athlete has to do to get the equal benefits of EPO is get a hypobaric tent! Damn! I guess someone forgot to tell David Millar this!

  16. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeedSpeed
    ? From the mid-point of the 1999 Tour, Armstrong became the most queried, tested rider in the peleton. If he can find a way to dope while avoiding getting caught with all of those tests over the last six years, he's the smartest athlete on the planet (in terms of avoiding getting busted)
    No. You don't have to be smart. That's what bloodtests and doctors are for. I, myself, can drive down to a clinic and get my blood tested to see what my hematocrit level is. If its getting too high, like over the limit, then I can back off the EPO. See, no positive test, right there! Hard work + EPO is a winning combination.

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    gregs actual true comment

    Quote Originally Posted by collinsc
    You do know that Lemond started all this *****ing dont you? No one was saying **** (certainly Armstrong was not talking trash about Lemond completely unprovoked) until Greg opened up his bitter face.
    he said: if Lance did this comeback clean, it is the greatest ever.

    I agree

    he also said: if not, he is the greatest fraud ever.

    I agree

    \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

    How is it that some can believe Greg is bitter with out proof, but believe Lance is and has always been clean without proof. I don't know the answer to either question. Only Lance and Greg do.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ricky2
    No. You don't have to be smart. That's what bloodtests and doctors are for. I, myself, can drive down to a clinic and get my blood tested to see what my hematocrit level is. If its getting too high, like over the limit, then I can back off the EPO. See, no positive test, right there! Hard work + EPO is a winning combination.
    Ya, that's real nice Ricky. Now please explain to me how you're going to test negative when your hematocrit level will still be in the +3-4% range for almost 2 weeks after you've stopped taking it. If your hematocrit level is normal, then you're not getting the positive results of the EPO to begin with... ie, more RBCs, higher oxygen capacity to feed hungry muscles.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traveller
    What happened to the concept of proof. Lance is one of the most tested athlete's in the world. he get's unannounced visit at home for testing. If he was cheating he would have been caught by now (based on law of averages). Why can't folks beleive that he can win without drugs. Those who assert that he takes or has taken drugs should prove it or shut up. These accusations are nothing but hot air otherwise. All they have done is made Lance look bad and make him angry. I think that's great for Lance as he is going to be even more motivated to win this one and hopefully the next TDF too.

    Didnt Lance's great buddy MILLAR always tested negative too???? Wsnt he tested lots of times as well... and didnt he ride great time trails??? But we all know whwat he was on.,.. So whats wrong with questioning blind faith and loyalty to Texan boy??? Unless you are all afraid that he is not clean actually, and Lemond was RIGHT!!!

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    Smile

    • as a young triathlete, he was tested and found to have a one-in-a-million gift of aerobic threshold i.e. low resting heart rate, incredibly efficient heart and VO2 max lung/oxygen capacity. PLUS, his body produces less lactic acid than most other endurance athletes

    Yep - IMH sometimes we get a small window to watch extraordinary athletes do incredible things and should enjoy the moments. - Pele, Sampras, Montana, Jordan, Woods and yes Armstrong

  21. #21
    Domestic Drivin' E-Thug
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    Quote Originally Posted by ParticleMan
    Didnt Lance's great buddy MILLAR always tested negative too???? Wsnt he tested lots of times as well... and didnt he ride great time trails??? But we all know whwat he was on.,.. So whats wrong with questioning blind faith and loyalty to Texan boy??? Unless you are all afraid that he is not clean actually, and Lemond was RIGHT!!!
    So the LA haters want to bring in the Millar analogy? Fine. Why is NO ONE bringing up the fact that the Euskatel Euskadi team doctor was suspended before the Tour for doing............ that's right folks, administering EPO to Millar. And what does that say about Iban Mayo and the Orange Crush? Everyone is down on Lance because the Motorola team doctor was fired and said LA was using even though he was fired A YEAR BEFORE LA was even on the team (ditto Brunyeel). So if this really isn't just an LA witchhunt, then let's hear some speculation about Mayo. Got it in you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Human G-Nome
    So the LA haters want to bring in the Millar analogy? Fine. Why is NO ONE bringing up the fact that the Euskatel Euskadi team doctor was suspended before the Tour for doing............ that's right folks, administering EPO to Millar. And what does that say about Iban Mayo and the Orange Crush? Everyone is down on Lance because the Motorola team doctor was fired and said LA was using even though he was fired A YEAR BEFORE LA was even on the team (ditto Brunyeel). So if this really isn't just an LA witchhunt, then let's hear some speculation about Mayo. Got it in you?

    Simply put - testing negative all the time, like Mr Millar, is NO evidence of being clean. I am sure even you can understand this? Instead of putting everything down to Lance bashing....

  23. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by ParticleMan
    Didnt Lance's great buddy MILLAR always tested negative too???? Wsnt he tested lots of times as well... and didnt he ride great time trails??? But we all know whwat he was on.,.. So whats wrong with questioning blind faith and loyalty to Texan boy??? Unless you are all afraid that he is not clean actually, and Lemond was RIGHT!!!

    Millar isn't the only rider to have tested negative, but still got busted on EPO. Virenque, Pantani, Manzano, the list is looooooong! Someone needs to tell the treasurer of the Armstrong Fan Club that. This is common knowledge. Athletes have been doping with EPO and still monitor hematocrit levels so they don't go over the legal limit.

  24. #24
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    Careful there Ricky with those remarks.. lest the Followers of Lance give u a 'Lemond Bashing' for even insinuating questioning Lance's record and performance. After all, he is sooo clean he can gift any stage he wants... Oops, sorry Texans!

  25. #25
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    Ricky2...ParticleMan...I am so glad idiots like you two dont run the judicial system around here.

    Innocent until proven guilty, I say. If not, then my accusations are as meaninful as Lemond's and ParticleMan is a pedophile, and Ricky2 sells crack to children.

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