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Coaching: Worth the $$$?

3K views 40 replies 20 participants last post by  KATZRKOL 
#1 ·
Hi all.

Have some questions for those of you who've invested in coaching services.

Have you found a significant difference/advantage compared to DIY/Training Bible training plans? Did it improve your results or increase your training efficiency (good or better results for less training time)?

I've been doing he Friel thing for a couple of years and improvement seems to have max'ed out, partly do to life/job commitments, partly because I'm not sure how to fine-tune my training plan. I'm trying to decide whether a coach would be worth the $1k or more it'd cost for the year.

Thanks.
 
#3 ·
While there are many good books out there...

goldsbar said:
Sounds like a lot of $$'s for someone who is doing this as a recreational activity (i.e. your job/life commitment comment). No first hand knowleadge of cycling coaches. Most information, however, seems readily available in books.
While there are many good books out there on the subject of coaching, you don't get interaction with a book, and you also don't have someone else looking at your training data, looking at your training times, and crafting a program to your specific needs. Books also normally don't have advanced degrees in physiology, nutrition, and other things that most good coaches will have under their belt. This is of course not to say that the people who wrote said books didn't have that information under their belt, but it is an ever changing field, and what was written 2 years ago and considered good training technique has changed. Look at where we were maybe 5 years ago, just about everyone training with heartrate instead of power, and look where most of the training plans are now. It evolves. A book will have some up to date information and training techniques, but having a good coach provides you with more up to date information and training. Notice I said a good coach. There are plenty of hacks out there who think that because they were a good cyclist at one point in time that they can make a good coach, this is sometimes true, but not always. For me, a good coach is someone who is up to date on the latest training techniques, someone who has some sort of exercise physiology degree (although not completely necessary), and someone who attends classes, or seminars on these items.

A book will also not give you motivation to train, and will not talk over with you how you can change your program to suit your needs. Books will rarely be at actual races giving you racing strategies before, during, and after races, and books will never actually talk to you, or go for a ride with you.

So for me, a good coach is worth the money as long as I can afford it. With the coach that I've worked with in the past, and continue to work with now, I've seen great improvements in all facets of my cycling.
 
#5 ·
my 2 cents

Figure out what your goals are.
Are you a 35 year old cat.4 with family, wife, kids, etc. Then the coach is probably a waste of your money unless you can really afford an extra $1,000 a year, looking for that masters national title or something.
However if you're a younger racer early 20's, late teens and know this is something that you want to do for awhile, then sure, spend the $. Again, as long as you can afford it.
Those in the middle of the spectrum. I tend to think that a coach is a waste of money for cat 4 and 5 racers. These guys just need to figure out if they like the sport first. Once you're a cat 3, it may become worth the money and time to invest in a coach IF this is something you want to do for awhile and have a desire to move up the ranks.
I'm a cat. 3 for life. I have no desire to be a cat. 2. That being said, I've been riding/racing for 17 years now (I'm 31 now). Sure I had delusions of being pro when I was young, but at my age, racing is for fun and to keep in shape. I know what works for me, and I know what type of training I need to do to get the results I want. I'd rather put a $1,000 towards vacation at this point in my life.
With your time/life commitments, a coach might be worth it to help you squeeze some effective training out of your schedule.

Like I said, these are my opinions. Your's may differ.
 
#6 ·
I'm 45 and have been racing MTB & Road for 4 years. My experience using a coach is that my fitness and race results took quantum leap!!! If you really enjoy racing and want to go to the next level I would spend the $$ on a good coach. If your in Northern California drop me a PM if you want the name of a good coach
 
#7 ·
Different types of coaches, your goals

onrhodes said:
Figure out what your goals are. ... That being said, I've been riding/racing for 17 years now (I'm 31 now). ... I know what works for me, and I know what type of training I need to do to get the results I want. I'd rather put a $1,000 towards vacation at this point in my life. ... With your time/life commitments, a coach might be worth it to help you squeeze some effective training out of your schedule.
QUOTE]
There are a lot of variables which impact the decision. First, a "remote" coach (i.e. one who you contact via email or phone) is really a strength coach, not a tactics coach (for tactics, someone has to actually be there, see you race, and ideally ride next to you in training races). So if you have been racing for a bunch of years, and are satisfied with your fitness, that type of coaching isn't going to do much (if anything) for you.
On the other hand, I do have a "remote coach" and I figure that many cyclists spend $1000 a year on things like wheels or equipment which will not make them faster, while a coach can. If you can make up a daily training schedule from a book, and understand the logic behind the schedule, the coaching won't be that different. But, to use myself as an example, I've read Friel's book, I have graduate degrees (not meaning to be snide, meaning that I think I understand books reasonably well), and actually had raced cat3 a very long time ago before work got in the way and turned me into a runner. When I returned to cycling, I raced for one season "self-trained" (lots of miles, lots of hard group rides, and around 15 races). Then, since at that point CTS offered a discount if you had a USCF racing license, I decided to try coaching. The big difference from coaching (aside from some motivation, and a willingness to experiment with training more than I would myself) is that the coach puts in the workouts I don't want to do. In other words, most of us tend to train our strengths (I'm a good climber, so I like climbing workouts) and avoid workouts which hurt (repeats of 3- to 5-minute flat out VO2 intervals). Or we do the workouts which hurt, but maybe we schedule a few less repeats. A coach makes sure you do the workouts you need, not the ones you like. I think the investment was worth it. I also don't think of this as a "lifetime investment" - after a few seasons of coaching, once the results really plateau, you probably know enough (and have enough printed workout schedules from your coach) to wean yourself, and go back to self-coaching. But I do think it is worth it for a few years if you want to see how good a racer you can be. Unfortunately there is also the old "you get what you pay for." Last year I invested in the PowerTap wheel and upped the coaching level to one that analyzes power files - the results are even better, but the cost is higher...
 
#9 ·
very interesting. i am a 35 y.o. cat. 4 with a wife and a kid and i just had my first long-term coaching experience. my goal is to be as competitive as possible with the little training time i have so that my teammates can count on me to show up on race day at 100% (whatever that is).

around here (nyc), most cat. 4 and cat. 5 racers are not just figuring out whether or not the like racing. most of them have already invested thousands of dollars into bikes, equipment, etc. nyc is full of type A guys, and 85% of the cat. 4s and 5s are type A. we have many "cat. 4s for life" here, so to place in cat. 4, a rider has to be quite serious.

my wife got me three-months of coaching as a b-day present, so at $125 per month, i had nothing to lose but my dignity. i found a great local coach, a former high-caliber cat. 3 with a masters in exercise physiology. he coaches the canadian duathlon champion. again, my no. 1 goal was to make the most of my limited training time--about 8 hours per week in 1- and 2-hour blocks. he was very patient designing my program and was motivating without being a PITA.

better yet, he knew the local racing scene and spent hours talking with me about racing tactics. he really went above and beyond the $125 per month. in short, he probably spent about 8 hours per month with me, which only equates to $16 an hour. not much for him.

but, in the end, i found that i just didn't have the time to train. during the summer, work and travel and family commitments ate into my training more than i thought it would. i probably did 75% of his workouts; i still worked as hard as i've ever worked on a bike. no, my results did not get better. in fact, i got shelled toward the end of the season, which was discouraging.

my coach picked up on this and decided not to charge for the final month, which was cool.

any lessons? if you are not racing, it's a waste of money. if you are racing, don't do it unless you know you can commit to X hours per week for at least six months. find a local guy; don't do it online. prepare for training/riding to feel a helluva lot more like work than fun.

onrhodes said:
Figure out what your goals are.
Are you a 35 year old cat.4 with family, wife, kids, etc. Then the coach is probably a waste of your money unless you can really afford an extra $1,000 a year, looking for that masters national title or something.
However if you're a younger racer early 20's, late teens and know this is something that you want to do for awhile, then sure, spend the $. Again, as long as you can afford it.
Those in the middle of the spectrum. I tend to think that a coach is a waste of money for cat 4 and 5 racers. These guys just need to figure out if they like the sport first. Once you're a cat 3, it may become worth the money and time to invest in a coach IF this is something you want to do for awhile and have a desire to move up the ranks.
I'm a cat. 3 for life. I have no desire to be a cat. 2. That being said, I've been riding/racing for 17 years now (I'm 31 now). Sure I had delusions of being pro when I was young, but at my age, racing is for fun and to keep in shape. I know what works for me, and I know what type of training I need to do to get the results I want. I'd rather put a $1,000 towards vacation at this point in my life.
With your time/life commitments, a coach might be worth it to help you squeeze some effective training out of your schedule.

Like I said, these are my opinions. Your's may differ.
 
#10 ·
800lbgorilla said:
Have you found a significant difference/advantage compared to DIY/Training Bible training plans?
Yes.
800lbgorilla said:
Did it improve your results or increase your training efficiency (good or better results for less training time)?
Again, emphatically, yes. For me the best thing about having a coach was the motivation to train. When you are accountable you will try harder. You won't bag that last interval, you'll do it anyway.

My thoughts on picking a coach: go local, go with someone who knows your race scene, who will show to your races. These other guys have talked about the coach's resume, and that's important, but there's also an intangible element that great coaches have. The Cult of Personality... great coaches can get an athlete to go beyond his limits. Truly inspire you to hurt when you shouldn't. That's the guy you want, even if is resume isn't as long.
 
#12 ·
KATZRKOL said:
getting paid to ride a bike is in your future. Or perhaps if you can't think of anything better to do with 1K.
I dissagree.


To somepeople, getting paid or not, it's important for them to throw down good races, and be competitive. If your 30+ your never going to be a pro, too old, does this mean that they should just accept their fate, and stop racing, I would hope not. If someone values racing, and the compitetion, why shouldn't they be as prepared as possible?

I see these posts from you all the time, it's a shitty attitude, one which I don't see how it can serve you in your normal life. Just becuase your not going to get paid for it, dosen't mean you shouldn't do your best, whatever that is.
 
#14 ·
I am a coach who does charge and does train people via the Internet and in person. Here are some of my thoughts...

magnolialover said:
While there are many good books out there on the subject of coaching, you don't get interaction with a book, and you also don't have someone else looking at your training data, looking at your training times, and crafting a program to your specific needs. Books also normally don't have advanced degrees in physiology, nutrition, and other things that most good coaches will have under their belt.
I am not aware of too many National Team Coaches who have those sorts of qualifications. Most were ex-pros or elite track racers. There are a lot of people with exercise physiology degrees who call themselves coaches. There is more to making a champion than physiology. One area they may be of an advantage is if you wish to get regular blood and urine samples taken and analysed. In NZ only a Doctor or registered exercise physiologist can do this.

For me, a good coach is someone who is up to date on the latest training techniques, someone who has some sort of exercise physiology degree (although not completely necessary), and someone who attends classes, or seminars on these items.
Disagree with the first and agree with the second sentence. A good coach is someone who knows cycling inside out and works with not only an exercise physiologist but a registered nutritionist, sport psychologist, doctor, bio mechanist and a sports manager.

A book will also not give you motivation to train, and will not talk over with you how you can change your program to suit your needs. Books will rarely be at actual races giving you racing strategies before, during, and after races, and books will never actually talk to you, or go for a ride with you.
In my experience in coaching elite and novice and personal training sports people and normal people those who need motivation are not going to succeed. Either the racing is a powerful motivator to train and race or you have a rider who will not go far.

Hamish Ferguson
 
#16 · (Edited)
Thanks

Thanks, everyone, for sharing some insightful comments. Hopefully there'll be more discussion to come.

I want to add a note of agreement to some of the comments about motivation/incentive to get a coach. As a freshly graduated Masters racer (I'm 30, former cat 3), I've got a few good years of leg speed left before age/kids catch up to me. I ride with a good team, and my job allows me some flexibility to be able to get in a good 12-14h of training a week. Perhaps most importantly, I'm still motivated to ride stronger and race better. I feel that I have room to improve, Doing things to the best of my ability, and competing well, is important to me.

For this reason, I think that the argument that coaching is only worthwhile if you have a future career in cycling falls short. If this were true, coaching would only be worthwhile for a very small fraction (if any) of us. The analogy to beer league hockey/football/baseball also falls short since many recreational athletes in other sports make substantial investments in their performance also (to say nothing of beer money ;-)

So, my question still remains whether (for those of us who are motivated to race better) having a coach will improve the quality of my training and racing above what I can achieve with DIY/Friel book methods and a few years of experience.

A fair number have indicated that yes, a coach does provide added value. Looking forward to hearing even more opinions.

Thanks again.
 
#17 ·
onrhodes said:
Figure out what your goals are.
Are you a 35 year old cat.4 with family, wife, kids, etc. Then the coach is probably a waste of your money unless you can really afford an extra $1,000 a year, looking for that masters national title or something.
However if you're a younger racer early 20's, late teens and know this is something that you want to do for awhile, then sure, spend the $. Again, as long as you can afford it.
Those in the middle of the spectrum. I tend to think that a coach is a waste of money for cat 4 and 5 racers. These guys just need to figure out if they like the sport first. Once you're a cat 3, it may become worth the money and time to invest in a coach IF this is something you want to do for awhile and have a desire to move up the ranks.
I'm a cat. 3 for life. I have no desire to be a cat. 2. That being said, I've been riding/racing for 17 years now (I'm 31 now). Sure I had delusions of being pro when I was young, but at my age, racing is for fun and to keep in shape. I know what works for me, and I know what type of training I need to do to get the results I want. I'd rather put a $1,000 towards vacation at this point in my life.
With your time/life commitments, a coach might be worth it to help you squeeze some effective training out of your schedule.

Like I said, these are my opinions. Your's may differ.
Congrats! I never made it out of the 4s on the road. That said, I DID make it to the As at the track here in Sandy Eggo. I just never did see a need to upgrade after I could race masters...

I'm 37, have been racing/riding for darn near 20 years now and while a coach MAY help me get where I wanna go, so will merely focusing on riding smart/training to a plan, and acutally being comitted.

to the OP: you can do most of what a coach will do with a group/one buddy, or a racer in a higher cat that will give you the time of day. Assuming the guy's a buddy, have him watch yer next few races and have him let you know what he thinks you need help with and work on that systematically for the next 6-8 weeks. Obviously having him yell 'GO FASTER' ain't gonna cut it.

Oh, and if yer NOT on a team get thee on one PRONTO. Preferably one with multiple cats and multiple riders in YOUR cat that you can help/have them help you to win races and get upgrade points. On a team, you can ride/train with the fast guys and see what they do vs. what you do and fix that/those issue(s).

HTH,

M
 
#18 ·
There's quite a few coaches here in Sandy Eggo. From Eddy B with his many, many years of Euro team experience to John Ledford that just graduated with a degree in something a few years ago (I'm too lazy to go look it up) to Arnie Baker, to Mark Whitehead. Both of the latter have many many years of experience teaching cyclists, but do it in COMPLETELY different ways.

All have trained good cyclists. Both have had riders quit their programs in disgust. (that's a strong term, used very figuratively)

It all depends on how you feel about said coach, their methods, their programs, and their interaction with you.

AFAIK you're getting a pig in a poke over the net.

HTH again,

M
 
#19 ·
800lbgorilla said:
I want to add a note of agreement to some of the comments about motivation/incentive to get a coach. As a freshly graduated Masters racer (I'm 30, former cat 3), I've got a few good years of leg speed left before age/kids catch up to me. I ride with a good team, and my job allows me some flexibility to be able to get in a good 12-14h of training a week. Perhaps most importantly, I'm still motivated to ride stronger and race better. I feel that I have room to improve, Doing things to the best of my ability, and competing well, is important to me.

For this reason, I think that the argument that coaching is only worthwhile if you have a future career in cycling falls short. If this were true, coaching would only be worthwhile for a very small fraction (if any) of us. The analogy to beer league hockey/football/baseball also falls short since many recreational athletes in other sports make substantial investments in their performance also (to say nothing of beer money ;-)
No matter what your levels of ambition achiveing goals is important. I coach but still have goals for Masters racing and I intend to make every training ride and race count towards and eventual start at Masters Worlds. Why shouldn't someone who has similar committments want to draw on the wealth of information a good coach can provide.

So, my question still remains whether (for those of us who are motivated to race better) having a coach will improve the quality of my training and racing above what I can achieve with DIY/Friel book methods and a few years of experience.
A coach will provide far more as they will be able to assess you personally, assess your goals and come up with a personalised programme. As mentioned above make sure you select the right one.

Hamish Ferguson
 
#21 ·
Geeze guys. . .

FTF said:
I see these posts from you all the time, it's a shitty attitude, one which I don't see how it can serve you in your normal life. Just becuase your not going to get paid for it, dosen't mean you shouldn't do your best, whatever that is.
Where's the love? It's just one man's opinion, and certainly nothing to get yourself worked up about. IMO, being a top contender comes down to motivation, genetics, and training time, I'm simply implying that I don't see a coach doing this for most people. As for my sh*&t attitude, I guess I'm a realist. :)
 
#22 ·
KATZRKOL said:
IMO, being a top contender comes down to motivation, genetics, and training time, I'm simply implying that I don't see a coach doing this for most people.
So you believe the only thing that matters in training is total volume and that the nature of the training makes no difference? By your argument riding 6 hours at 12 mph is just as effective as 6 hours at 20 mph. I think most people disagree with that. Once someone realizes the importance of structured training, it is also easy to see how important it is to get expert advice in developing this training plan.
 
#23 ·
2 way street

asgelle said:
So you believe the only thing that matters in training is total volume and that the nature of the training makes no difference? By your argument riding 6 hours at 12 mph is just as effective as 6 hours at 20 mph. I think most people disagree with that. Once someone realizes the importance of structured training, it is also easy to see how important it is to get expert advice in developing this training plan.

It really depends on your coach.

However, it takes a program with a goal in mind to do anything on the bike worthwhile with or without a coach.

Riding for hour after hour after hour is great. It is fun. However, when you see that gee, I ride alot and I am not improving (choose a metric), the idea of actually giving structure to your training is really really evident.

You may go through a few coaches before you get the one that fits. However, in all fairness, you have to be realistic in your goals and your available time to train as well as diet, recovery etc etc etc. Some folks show up and say, I want to be faster and 2 weeks later, say, hey, this guy is a bozo etc etc. Meanwhile, they barely trained or even better did training that had nothing to do with speed work. Can you believe what a need machine that coach is????

:eek:
 
#24 ·
I don't get it. .

asgelle said:
Once someone realizes the importance of structured training, it is also easy to see how important it is to get expert advice in developing this training plan.
Where is it written that if you don't have a coach you can't get structured training? Intelligent, motivated people can get structured training without a coach. There is a whole plethora of information out there for free from exercise psychologists. In addition to that, we have heart rate monitors as well as watt meters at our disposal. Perhaps I'm different, as being an engineer, I'm very analytical and draw conclusions from real numbers and how one variable effects the other.
 
#25 ·
easy answer

KATZRKOL said:
Where is it written that if you don't have a coach you can't get structured training? Intelligent, motivated people can get structured training without a coach. There is a whole plethora of information out there for free from exercise psychologists. In addition to that, we have heart rate monitors as well as watt meters at our disposal. Perhaps I'm different, as being an engineer, I'm very analytical and draw conclusions from real numbers and how one variable effects the other.

It is usually written on their advertising literature. (Egad the irony!)

Otherwise, well taken point on your part.
 
#26 ·
KATZRKOL said:
Where is it written that if you don't have a coach you can't get structured training? Intelligent, motivated people can get structured training without a coach. There is a whole plethora of information out there for free from exercise psychologists. In addition to that, we have heart rate monitors as well as watt meters at our disposal. Perhaps I'm different, as being an engineer, I'm very analytical and draw conclusions from real numbers and how one variable effects the other.
I have to agree here. Sure I made some mistakes in training when I first started racing 17 years ago, but I learned quick. I'm an accountant, therefore I think that I tend to be quite analytical too. Plus to sum it up. 4 years of youth soccer, 7 years of track and field (indoor and outdoor), 17 years of cycling. I think I now my body enough and what types or workouts work well. Riding with a few cat. 1 racers on a regular basis helps a lot too. Their advice and A$$ kickings are free.
My personal opinion is that coaching has become way over filled with unqualified individuals who are just trying to make a buck. Sure there are plenty of fully qualified coaches out there, but for the New England scene alone I can think of almost 20 coaches charging people for money. Several of whom pretty much read the Carmichael and Friel books and regurgitate the training plans for their cleints.
Are there people out there who can read a book and not comprehend what to do next. Sure. I also agree it is easier to have some one telling you what to do when. But could you do it yourself and save some money at the same time? Why not.
$50 for the CTS and Friel Books (probably cheaper used from amazon), buy some spinerval or CTS DVDs for your winter workouts and a lot of those can translate into road workouts too. You're still no where near the $1,000 a coach is going to cost.
Talk with your local cat1 and 2 friends, if they are cool, they'll dish out some good advice.
I really do think that some people need a coach because they would be clueless without one. But I like to believe that most people should be reasonably intelligent enough to self coach themselves.
I'd think a beginner racing clinic that a lot of regions have early in the spring might be more beneficial to a new comer then paying for a coach.

like always, my opinion, yours may differ
 
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