Any NON tubeless-ready 700c, 23mm rims out there?
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  1. #1
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    Any NON tubeless-ready 700c, 23mm rims out there?

    If they exist, can we get a list going of 700c, 622, 23+mm wide NON tubeless-ready rims?
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  2. #2
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    H Plus Son Archetype isn't marketed as such...then again any rim can be turned tubeless. The reg Hed Belgium (non-plus) isn't marked for tubeless from the get go either.

    Any particular reason for non-tubeless ready? The center-fluting of tubeless compatible rims makes mounting any old tire easier if you use good tire mounting technique.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marc View Post
    Any particular reason for non-tubeless ready? The center-fluting of tubeless compatible rims makes mounting any old tire easier if you use good tire mounting technique.
    Yes, there is a good reason why I ask Marc. And by the way - I'm fully aware of all the techniques for R&R'ing tires. On my "normal" rims I haven't used a tire lever in years.

    I have some tubeless-ready rims (wheels) here and doing tire removal tests today with both old and new tires, with and without levers, it left my hands red and sore with struggle. I stopped short of skin-removal.

    IMO, there is no reason to use "tublesss ready" rims with non-tubeless tires. I don't see any benefit and the definite downside is much harder tire removal - which for me is unacceptable. I have NO idea how a woman, a weaker male than me, or one with less tire R&R skills and experience, would ever get these tires off to insert a new tube.

    And yes, lube of some form would make the job easier but that is hardly possible out on the road.

    Hence, the request for known non tubeless-ready 23+mm rims. I'll list them on my site.
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  4. #4
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    HED plus rims are marketed as "tubeless ready", but only because of having a larger lip to catch the bead. They still have holes to where the spokes/nipples are installed conventionally. They require Stans type rim tape to be used as tubeless.

    Why the aversion to tubeless ready? Okay, I saw your response to Marc.

    I will tell you that I HATED trying to mount tubeless on DuraAce wheels, even with a lever. The HEDs are another story. I mounted Hutchenson Fusion III tubeless on them with no lever. I was shocked...and pleased. In fact I cut a tire last Saturday and had to install a tube on the side of the road. Yes, I did use a lever as it was cold and wet, but it was easy. Yes, HED's are not cheap, but they can be viewed as conventional for tire mounting purposes.
    Last edited by Blue CheeseHead; 10-15-2014 at 01:23 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    HED - I mounted Hutchenson Fusion III tubeless on them with no lever. I was shocked...and pleased. In fact I cut a tire last Saturday and had to install a tube on the side of the road. Yes, I did use a lever as it was cold and wet, but it was easy. Yes, HED's are not cheap, but they can be viewed as conventional for tire mounting purposes.
    Thanks BCH. Two questions -

    1. Have you tried a non tubeless tire on those rims (for non lever fit performance)?
    2. Do you think they should be on a list of "23+mm non-tubless" rims?

    If I can get your answers and (even better still) someone else's confirmation of your findings, I'll modify my OP to list them and put them on my site.
    .

  6. #6
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    I have some Yoeleo 23mm wide carbon/aluminium rims that are non-tubeless-ready, but it was really hard fitting tyres (Michelin Pro Optimum) - I had to use a lever for one of them. On the other hand, it was relatively easy to mount tyres (Vittoria Voyager Hyper) to the tubeless-ready Velocity A23 without a lever.

    I don't like it if they are too easy to fit/remove though, because the tyres are then more likely to roll off the rims in the event of a puncture, which is potentially dangerous.

  7. #7
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    The November Rail 52 and 34 rims aren't marketed as tubeless ready. They can be converted to run it, but they won't straight out of the assembly line.

    Width at brake track: 25 mm
    Width internally: 18 mm
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  8. #8
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    I haven't managed to source any tubeless rims yet. Perhaps the next ones I buy.

    In theory you just drop one bead down into the groove, and the tire should come off easily. However, in practice, you likely have two layers of tube in the groove too, which could make the tubeless ready more difficult to remove when used with tubes especially thick butyl tubes.

    Rims:
    Velocity Aerohead & Aerohead OC (20mm wide), all rims are designed for use with tubes. Apparently discontinued, and stock is dwindling.

    Velocity A23 & A23 OC (23mm), Old stock may be non tubeless, new US Stock is tubeless.

    Velocity, Australian Made, I believe at least some of the Australian Velocity rims that are showing up in the USA are tube type.

    Unfortunately, at least with Velocity, They are replacing the tube-type rims with tubeless rims using the same models and designations without noting the change. Some vendors post profile diagrams, but one can't trust it to be accurate.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Yes, there is a good reason why I ask Marc. And by the way - I'm fully aware of all the techniques for R&R'ing tires. On my "normal" rims I haven't used a tire lever in years.

    I have some tubeless-ready rims (wheels) here and doing tire removal tests today with both old and new tires, with and without levers, it left my hands red and sore with struggle. I stopped short of skin-removal.

    IMO, there is no reason to use "tubelesss ready" rims with non-tubeless tires. I don't see any benefit and the definite downside is much harder tire removal - which for me is unacceptable. I have NO idea how a woman, a weaker male than me, or one with less tire R&R skills and experience, would ever get these tires off to insert a new tube.

    And yes, lube of some form would make the job easier but that is hardly possible out on the road.

    Hence, the request for known non tubeless-ready 23+mm rims. I'll list them on my site.
    Sorry, I'm don't know the term "R&R". Is it "Remove and Replace" ?

    I have HED Ardennes Plus rims, "tubeless ready". They are way easier to mount my 23c GP4000S tires than my old regular width, non-tubeless Kinlin 30 rims were.

    When I first got the Kinlins, I had sore fingers and two mangled levers after a long struggle to mount a tire. I wondered if I would need a big steel tire lever or something similar out on the road!

    But, I found an easy way to mount the (folding bead) tires, using just one lever and very little force on the lever. The key is to just lift less than an inch at a time, slide the lever over, and repeat. It's fast and easy.

    The Kinlins have a very shallow center well, so that makes it very hard to get the bead over the edge of the rim. Even with just one bead mounted, down in the center of the well with no tube yet, I can't slide the tire around the rim to match the label with the valve hole. Very tight.
    It takes two levers to get the tire off the rim, and one lever to mount it.

    ~~~~~

    On the HED rim, I did use a tire lever, but it was very easy, and I could probably do it with fingers only. (I'm not used to trying without a lever.)

    The beads "pop" into the rim as the tube is inflated, when they kind of lock into the side of the rim. And they are held there even with the tube deflated. But it's easy to pop them loose with light thumb pressure so they can drop down into the center of the rim. And the center well is wide and deep, which helps to get the bead over the edge of the rim.

    The tube fits up in the tire, away from the beads. In fact, the first time I deflated the new tires after getting them from the shop, I didn't see the tube at first, and thought the shop might have mounted them tubeless! And HED has light blue rim tape, so it's easy to check for pinched tubes. I never liked black rim tapes.

    I got a rear puncture flat this week, and both beads stayed locked into the rim. I could ride the bike slowly with no air, and the tire stayed in place, folded flat to each side of the rim. I only tried it for a hundred yards or so. I'll have to try an old worn out tire some day to see if it'll stay on while riding it flat.
    Last edited by rm -rf; 10-15-2014 at 08:30 PM.

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    I don't think anyone has mentioned the Flo30. And I spent about an hour last night trying to wrestle a Kenda Slant 6 onto a Stan's Crest. Holy crap what a battle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skinewmexico View Post
    I don't think anyone has mentioned the Flo30. And I spent about an hour last night trying to wrestle a Kenda Slant 6 onto a Stan's Crest. Holy crap what a battle.
    Another very common request was to make the wheels tubeless ready. Tubeless road options are quickly picking up steam. If you have a keen eye you will notice that the profile of the FLO 30 above has a tubeless ready design. All of the FLO 30's will come tubeless ready
    Flo Cycling Blog: FLO Cycling - The FLO 30 (previously the FLO Climber)

  12. #12
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    Oops. My bad. If I had known that, I would have set mine up tubeless.
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  13. #13
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    I think the operative characteristic is the depth of the trough between the hooks of the rim. Tubeless rims may have shelves just inside the hooks to help initial inflate and bead retention, but still have the trough in the center. If the trough is deep enough, tire installation will be easy, provided the bead is kept in the trough while getting the last bit over the rim. FWIW, I have pre tubeless-ready HED C2s and Pacenti SL23s and find them to be equally easy/hard to mount tires on. I'm not saying their easy or hard, just equal in that regard, and one is tubeless ready and the other isn't.
    ... 'cuz that's how I roll.

  14. #14
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    Mike,

    I have not directly tried non-tubeless tires on the HED rims. However, I have mounted tubeless and non-tubeless on the Dura-Ace 7801 Rims. The tubeless tires were MUCH harder to mount. I have mounted those exact tubeless tires on the HED rims with no problem. I would therefore expect the non-tubeless to mount even easier.

    I find the 25mm width of the HED plus rim to be a benefit whether running tubed or tubeless and thus should not be excluded just because they market them as being tubeless ready. (I judge that by running a tube in a tubeless tire twice, once to to rim tape failure and once due to a cut in the tire)

    I can tell you it is harder to mount standard tires on my Rolf Prima Elans than it is to mount tubeless on the HED Plus.

    If the standard is being able to change a flat on the side of the road without tools, add HED to the list.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    Thanks BCH. Two questions -

    1. Have you tried a non tubeless tire on those rims (for non lever fit performance)?
    2. Do you think they should be on a list of "23+mm non-tubless" rims?

    If I can get your answers and (even better still) someone else's confirmation of your findings, I'll modify my OP to list them and put them on my site.
    I have used tubeless (Hutchinson) and non-tubeless tires on my HED Ardennes Plus LT wheels/rims (25mm width). No issues mounting either type of tire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rm -rf View Post
    I have HED Ardennes Plus rims, "tubeless ready". They are way easier to mount my 23c GP4000S tires than my old regular width, non-tubeless Kinlin 30 rims were.
    Duly noted. Many thanks.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue CheeseHead View Post
    If the standard is being able to change a flat on the side of the road without tools, add HED to the list.
    Yep that's my standard. I can do it with my two current rims in use - Mavic OP and BWW Blackset Race. It's just that they are "narrow" rims and I want to list 23mm rims that don't need tools and/or Incredible Hulk strength**. Many thanks BCH for your definitive statement.

    **Lots of people (me included) don't need rims built for tubeless tires. And most wide rims seem to be very hard to get tires on & off due to their "tubeless ready" quality.

    I've said it before - even to BWW's Chris - I want his Blackset Race rim duplicated in 23mm width.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by GRAVELBIKE View Post
    I have used tubeless (Hutchinson) and non-tubeless tires on my HED Ardennes Plus LT wheels/rims (25mm width). No issues mounting either type of tire.
    That's 3 votes so far for HED rims. Thanks Gravelbike.
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  19. #19
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    Here's an option.

    Compass Bicycles: Rims

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    Quote Originally Posted by looigi View Post
    I think the operative characteristic is the depth of the trough between the hooks of the rim. Tubeless rims may have shelves just inside the hooks to help initial inflate and bead retention, but still have the trough in the center. If the trough is deep enough, tire installation will be easy, provided the bead is kept in the trough while getting the last bit over the rim. FWIW, I have pre tubeless-ready HED C2s and Pacenti SL23s and find them to be equally easy/hard to mount tires on. I'm not saying their easy or hard, just equal in that regard, and one is tubeless ready and the other isn't.
    I'm suprised to hear that. I have the pre-tubeless ready C2's also and would definitely put them in the 'easy' camp. So much so that I was worried perhaps the tires weren't tight enough (I'm talking REALLY easy to get tires on) but I've got about 8K on them with not problems so no need for concern.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike T. View Post
    IMO, there is no reason to use "tublesss ready" rims with non-tubeless tires. I don't see any benefit and the definite downside is much harder tire removal - which for me is unacceptable.
    I'll bite here with a simple one word answer: choice. Many people are on the fence about going tubeless, and for those of us who don't want or can't afford multiple wheelsets, tubeless ready wheels give you that option to take the plunge. I for one ran tubed clinchers on my Velocity A23 wheels for six months before switching over to tubeless. FWIW I never had any hassles mounting tubed or tubeless tires on those rims.

    I suppose one could run tubeless tires on non-tubeless rims. But this compromises one of tubeless wheels biggest safety points IMHO- and that is for the tire to remain seated in the rim when a flat occurs. And there are many reports of some tubeless tires outright blowing off non-tubeless rims shortly after mounting. YMMV

  22. #22
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    I can't imagine BWW ever sourcing a wide rim, after reading some of the negative thoughts/comments their management had about wider rims.

    They came down pretty hard on anyone who "thought" they felt any improvement with a 23mm or 25mm rim. I remember the thread well.

    [QUOTE=Mike T.;4739779
    I've said it before - even to BWW's Chris - I want his Blackset Race rim duplicated in 23mm width.[/QUOTE]

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    That's the reason I got rid of a set of tubeless rims,(pacenti) that I talked about in other threads. I'm running H Plus Son Archetype rims on 1 bike and BWW pure race rims on another bike and a winter set kinlin 270 rims. The H Plus are the only 23mm rims and I have had no trouble at all mounting or changing tires with my hands only and all my skin is intact after doing so. Of course the other 2 sets of rims are easy but they are not 23mm wide like you were asking about. Can't say the same about pacenti's even with proper technique.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rlrj View Post
    That's the reason I got rid of a set of tubeless rims,(pacenti) that I talked about in other threads. I'm running H Plus Son Archetype rims on 1 bike and BWW pure race rims on another bike and a winter set kinlin 270 rims. The H Plus are the only 23mm rims and I have had no trouble at all mounting or changing tires with my hands only and all my skin is intact after doing so. Of course the other 2 sets of rims are easy but they are not 23mm wide like you were asking about. Can't say the same about pacenti's even with proper technique.
    I have no problems at all mounting and dismounting tires on my Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4) I use 2 layers of Stans, make sure the bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. Its easy...no tools required!

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    Yes I did all the correct procedures of mounting tires and all the other tricks (slightly used tires which would have been stretched a bit, heated them in dryer and sun, etc) mounted by hand first got blisters, but when I flatted in 2 extremes very hot summer day and very cold winter day they were a PITA to mount even with a kool stop tire bead jack that it wasn't worth the trouble. I have zero problems now with the said rims with hands only.


    Quote Originally Posted by Stumpjumper FSR View Post
    I have no problems at all mounting and dismounting tires on my Pacenti SL23's (Vittoria Open Corsa / Michelin Pro 4) I use 2 layers of Stans, make sure the bead is in the center of the rim and finish at the valve stem. Its easy...no tools required!

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