Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?
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  1. #1
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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Last year I raced road on Hed Belgium rims with Conti Grand Prix 4000 S II 700x23 tires, but this was on my old race bike. New Giant Propel will be coming with these wheels:

    P-SLR0 AERO (WheelSystems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | International

    I was planning on running Schwalbe One 700x25 tires this year, and was considering tubeless for puncture resistance and to ease my mind with heat build up on carbon clinchers. I have also read that the feel of the tire is closer to tubulars in terms of grip.

    I ran tubeless on my cross tires all race season with great results, once I found the right rim/tire combination. These felt much better than the previous season when I was racing cross with tubes. Should I expect the same improvement on road? Any experience with the Schwalbe/Giant combination would be helpful.

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    I have no specific experience with those rims, but the only thing that would scare me would be the potential difficulty mounting tires on the carbon rims. Tubeless can be a bear to mount and you certainly would want to avoid levers on carbon.

    I see no reason that you would not see the same advantages on the carbon wheels as your cross wheels once you get them mounted.

    Tubeless w/sealant may be 50g/wheel heavier.

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    Plastic levers are ok on carbon rims. If the rims were so weak that you could break them with the tiny little tire levers we use they'd be dangerous to ride. If you're worried you can use the extra wide Park TL5 levers.

    Tubeless does not change how carbon clinchers react to brake heat. But carbon clinchers and carbon brake pads are getting better. Unless you're riding down very steep and technical descents, are super heavy or are a terrible descender they'll be fine.

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    My new propel has those wheels and I'm going to race them tubeless. They popped up with a crappy floor pump. I was able to get my Hutchinson intensives on with just my hands.

    I worked at a giant shop. As far as Giant and schwalbe, the mountain and cross stuff works perfect together. We didn't have much experience on the road side with schwalbe tubeless. I expect they will be fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    Plastic levers are ok on carbon rims. If the rims were so weak that you could break them with the tiny little tire levers we use they'd be dangerous to ride. If you're worried you can use the extra wide Park TL5 levers.
    I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.
    I'm surprised that Enve would say that, because of a few of the manufactures I checked with all said it was ok to use plastic levers but not metal levers on their CF rims, read the Reynolds site for one example. I don't use metal levers on my aluminum rims so I don't see any issue there, I do use the Soma steel core lever on my rims but those are covered in plastic material, but not sure if those are ok for CF, they should be since the metal is not exposed?

    And again, going to the Reynolds site for this info, they say you can use any psi recommended by the tire company up to 150 psi on their CF wheels, I haven't found a tire yet that needs more than that. HED has a formula for their wide C2 rims by multiplying the total rider and bike weight by 1.3, thus a 80 kg combined weight would need 104 psi. I don't think a CF rim manufacture would make a rim that you couldn't install a tire and pump it up to the max rated pressure on the sidewall if needed.

    Edit, I just found out that you can use plastic levers on Enve CF wheels. The following is straight from their instructions:

    NOTE: ENVE does not recommend the use of tire levers to install or remove your tires. However, we understand that there are moments when the use of a tire lever is necessary. When using a tire lever, only use PLASTIC levers, and be careful not to pinch your inner-tube during the install.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. There must be a reason many carbon clinchers have such low PSI limits
    That's because of brake heat raising the pressure. It can add 20-30 psi if one brakes a lot. That combined with the brake heat weakening the side wall of the rim can cause the rim to bulge in a weak spot. That spot then gets more brake heat, causing further bulging until the rider stops or the rim fails.

    Also lawyers.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    and companies such as Enve recommend not using levers on their rims.
    As froze posted Enve says to use them if you need them, just don't use metal levers. The manufacturers of the various carbon clinchers I own dont' say to not use levers. The Reynolds are pretty tight. You'd have to have thumbs of steel to install tires with no levers on them let alone remove them without levers.


    If you need metal core levers then you are levering too much tire at a time, which requires more force. Lots of little bites of tire is gentler on the tire and rim than a few big ones. If a tire is tight I'll lever half an inch at a time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ericm979 View Post
    That's because of brake heat raising the pressure. It can add 20-30 psi if one brakes a lot. That combined with the brake heat weakening the side wall of the rim can cause the rim to bulge in a weak spot. That spot then gets more brake heat, causing further bulging until the rider stops or the rim fails.
    oh, I hadn't thought of that being the reason.

  9. #9
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    Here is more about the heat issue: Carbon Clinchers?Are They Ready for Prime Time? | RKP

    And: Are carbon fiber clinchers safe? - BikeRadar

    I think the really good companies like those mentioned in the above articles are the best CF wheels to get for preventing heat damage, I wouldn't trust a generic CF wheel from China though. Also CF wheels do lead to braking fade when they heat up because the rim unlike AL rims cannot release the heat fast enough.

    The problems with CF rims getting too hot is the actual main reason disk brakes have been introduced, but then that heat on the rotor can actually get far hotter then an AL rim because there is less surface area so the heat has to go somewhere so it goes to the hub where it has been known to fry the grease and cause bearing failure. I guess I would rather have bearing failure than a crash! But then again just use AL rims and not worry about either.

    If you live in an area of mostly flat land the heating of the rim won't even remotely become an issue even if it's 120 degrees outside, these issues came up on fast, steep and long descents on hot days that required a lot of braking.

    However having said that I personally will never ride on CF wheels or use disk brakes...the disk brake thing would only apply to a road bike, on a MTB/CX or maybe a commuter bike I wouldn't have an issue with them except for the cost to maintain them is substantially higher than rim brakes but at least on MTB/CX bikes due to a lot of dirt, mud, water, etc they would be better than rim brakes, and riding off road like that you won't see the speed that could make a rotor red hot.

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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutchgenius View Post
    I was planning on running Schwalbe One 700x25 tires this year, and was considering tubeless for puncture resistance and to ease my mind with heat build up on carbon clinchers. I have also read that the feel of the tire is closer to tubulars in terms of grip.
    My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.
    For god's sake just stop w/ the Tufo stuff. It requires tubular wheels which the OP does not have. We all know you use the worst riding tubulars in history and force them on the rest of your family. The OP specifically asked about Giant rims and Schwalbe tires...at this point we can be pretty sure he's not interested in buying another set of wheels just so he can glue those sh*t tires on them.
    #promechaniclife

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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    For god's sake just stop w/ the Tufo stuff. It requires tubular wheels which the OP does not have. We all know you use the worst riding tubulars in history and force them on the rest of your family. The OP specifically asked about Giant rims and Schwalbe tires...at this point we can be pretty sure he's not interested in buying another set of wheels just so he can glue those sh*t tires on them.
    Another set of wheels costs $800.

  13. #13
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Another set of wheels costs $800.
    Your point being? Stick to the topic, please.
    #promechaniclife

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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Your point being? Stick to the topic, please.
    Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.

    Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.

    Tubeless tubular is the right way to go.

    I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.

    Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.

    Tubeless tubular is the right way to go.

    I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.
    He already has tubeless ready wheels...

    Another set of wheels does not need to cost $800 either.

    OP, schwalbe One tires get very good reviews.

    I'll offer up maxxis padrone as another option. The only negatives I see on it is that it's expensive as heck. Not sure what the schwalbe costs.

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    Double post

  17. #17
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.

    Tubeless clincher is going down the wrong path.

    Tubeless tubular is the right way to go.

    I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.
    Wheel prices are all over the map. Stick to the point.

    Tubeless clinchers work great, I ride them every day. Stick to the point.

    Tubeless tubulars are great for you, not for everyone. Stick to the point.

    Who gives a rat's ass what you do briefly every day? Stick to the point.
    #promechaniclife

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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.

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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.
    I ride twice everyday and hit 29.1 briefly on every ride and I think you are either one of the better internet trolls out there or need to have your house and car checked for a gas leak because you're clearly getting some heavy fumes.

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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Strongbow View Post
    I ride twice everyday and hit 29.1 briefly on every ride and I think you are either one of the better internet trolls out there or need to have your house and car checked for a gas leak because you're clearly getting some heavy fumes.
    What's your point then?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.

    Have you started any threads on these. I will search to see, if not please do. I would like to hear more. I will also google, assuming in the context the Tubular Clinchers is not what got referenced.

    I would attempt to ask in this thread, but fear being ostracized along with you for your sins.

    What is the mater with you? Thread drifting is a capitol offense you know.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoy a little fascism with my coffee as much as the next guy.


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    Is he referring to the Tubular Clinchers Tufo makes is what I would ask if I was not in fear.
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    Everything you read that I post is just '1' guy's opinion, try to sort it all out best you can. ;) I will try to add value in my posts, if I miss the mark please let me know using a little decorum.

  22. #22
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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    I refer to tubeless tubulars.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    My whole family rides on tubeless tubulars from Tufo. Try it.
    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Another set of wheels costs $800.
    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    Replacing the whole wheel+tire combination costs less than half of most high end tubeless clincher set of wheels.

    I ride it every day. 29mph briefly on every ride.
    Quote Originally Posted by myhui View Post
    What I do every day validates what I'm recommending.
    Stop trolling. None of this is relevant to the OP's questions. Go start a new thread on the amazing Tufo's.

    Who gives a rats @ss if you briefly hit 29mph? That is utterly useless info. Your tires should be able to routinely handle 50mph or more.
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    Considering racing on tubeless, good decision?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    Stop trolling. None of this is relevant to the OP's questions.
    I'm doing a product placement. Seen any movies lately?

  25. #25
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    I wouldn't worry that much re heat buildup. For one, with the wider rims you can run them at lower pressure (like 100 psi). Also, new brake pad formulations are better now - just don't use yellow Swisstop pads and don't use latex tubes. I melted 2 earlier version of Reynolds wheels, but have been riding their newer (2014) models with no issues, including some fast runs down about as technical a descent as they come.

    Re the Tufo comments from others - I used to train on tubulars and got talked into trying a tufo tire (forget the specific model but one of their high end ones). After one ride, I threw it away. Felt like a garden hose on the rim. Worst tire I've ever experienced.



    Quote Originally Posted by dutchgenius View Post
    Last year I raced road on Hed Belgium rims with Conti Grand Prix 4000 S II 700x23 tires, but this was on my old race bike. New Giant Propel will be coming with these wheels:

    P-SLR0 AERO (WheelSystems) - Bike Gear | Giant Bicycles | International

    I was planning on running Schwalbe One 700x25 tires this year, and was considering tubeless for puncture resistance and to ease my mind with heat build up on carbon clinchers. I have also read that the feel of the tire is closer to tubulars in terms of grip.

    I ran tubeless on my cross tires all race season with great results, once I found the right rim/tire combination. These felt much better than the previous season when I was racing cross with tubes. Should I expect the same improvement on road? Any experience with the Schwalbe/Giant combination would be helpful.

    Cheers

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