Enve 2.2 with CKr45c versus Enve 2.2 with DTS 240s hubs
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  1. #1
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    Enve 2.2 with CKr45c versus Enve 2.2 with DTS 240s hubs

    I am currently looking for a lower profile wheel set aimed primarily for a lot of hill/mtn road climbs. Although there are tons of options especially if you go with custom builds, I have decided pretty much to go with the Enve 2.2 Carbon Clinchers. I have been and will continue to use my 3.4 tubular with CKR454s on my other bike. They have been fortunately trouble free for over 3 years.

    Here are the options that I currently have:

    (1) Enve 2.2 clinchers with DT Swiss 240s

    OR

    (2) Enve 2.2 clinchers with CK r45c.

    I don't really care much that the CKs have ceramic bearings, but this set just happen to have them. I'd prefer to save the extra $200...but again, that is just what I am presented with right now.

    As stated above, I really like the CKR45s (non ceramic) on my 3.4s. Hence I am leaning towards the CKs, just not sure if they are that much better than the 240s? The weight difference is pretty negligible (~10 g lighter with the DTS). As I do a lot of climbing, I like a wheel set that is very responsive and engages quickly. CKR45 seem to do that very well with its 45 engagement points, whereas the standard 240s have only 18 (although you can upgrade to the 36 ratchet system.

    My practical side initially thought...go with the DT 240s and save $350-400. But then my heart says spend the extra $ and get what you really want as the price difference over the next 3-5 years would be negligible. One last reason I was leaning towards CKr45 was that I read some Enve 2.2 owners with the Dt 240s were experiencing rear wheel brake rub when out of the saddle climbing / sprinting. Some attribute that to possibly the smaller Flange size (?) with the DT 240s versus the CKr45s?

    I realize its my $ and its ultimately up to me to decide, but just wanted to gage your opinions and feedbacks if you were presented with this scenario. Don't really want to go off topic and talk about other manufacturers (rims or hubs) at this point. Thank you so much.
    Last edited by Cni2i; 06-09-2016 at 06:04 AM.
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cni2i View Post
    ............
    But then my heart says spend the extra $ and get what you really want as the price difference over the next 3-5 years would be negligible.
    Follow your heart.
    Performance wise they are both high quality hubs; origin wise I prefer the CK being home grown et al...
    Realistically, the differences between the two are not worth $500, at least IMO. Ceramic bearings etc. is marketing noise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cni2i View Post
    ............
    . One last reason I was leaning towards CKr45 was that I read some Enve 2.2 owners with the Dt 240s were experiencing rear wheel brake rub when out of the saddle climbing / sprinting. Some attribute that to possibly the smaller Flange size (?) with the DT 240s versus the CKr4.
    This reason is incorrect. Flange diameter makes a small difference in lateral stiffness but not that much. The flange offset ratio together with the number and type of spokes used play a much greater role in maintaining the wheel's lateral stiffness at higher levels.

    Back in the days of 10s the DT240 had one of the worst flange offset ratios when compared to other high end hubs, included CKs. Nowadays with 11s, this is no longer the case because the hubs with the better flange offset ratios were "shrunk" to fit the extra cog and doing so allowed the DT to be part of the group as opposed to lagging behind.

    Brake rub when sprinting with a carbon wheel means that there are not enough spokes to hold the rim from laterally displacing in its entirety when tilting the bike while out of the saddle. Either add more spokes or replace with heavier ga. spokes.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  3. #3
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    Might want to consider a different wheel.

    Reviewed: Enve SES 2.2 wheels - VeloNews.com
    use a torque wrench

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    Follow your heart.
    Performance wise they are both high quality hubs; origin wise I prefer the CK being home grown et al...
    Realistically, the differences between the two are not worth $500, at least IMO. Ceramic bearings etc. is marketing noise.




    This reason is incorrect. Flange diameter makes a small difference in lateral stiffness but not that much. The flange offset ratio together with the number and type of spokes used play a much greater role in maintaining the wheel's lateral stiffness at higher levels.

    Back in the days of 10s the DT240 had one of the worst flange offset ratios when compared to other high end hubs, included CKs. Nowadays with 11s, this is no longer the case because the hubs with the better flange offset ratios were "shrunk" to fit the extra cog and doing so allowed the DT to be part of the group as opposed to lagging behind.

    Brake rub when sprinting with a carbon wheel means that there are not enough spokes to hold the rim from laterally displacing in its entirety when tilting the bike while out of the saddle. Either add more spokes or replace with heavier ga. spokes.
    Thank you for the reply. I agree with you about the extra cost for ceramic bearings is definitely not worth it. Like I said, I wished it didn't have the ceramic bearings and be $200 less. But this particular set just happens to have them.

    As for lateral flex, I assumed the wheels in question all had 24 spokes. Not sure about the weight the riders either.


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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMsRepBike View Post
    Might want to consider a different wheel.

    Reviewed: Enve SES 2.2 wheels - VeloNews.com
    Thanks. I did read that and it did make me pause! But it is just from one reviewer and I believe it was with the DTS 240s. Not sure if the review would have been much different with CK hubs? But yeah...definitely not a glowing review. Based on that review, I should go pick up a set of DA c24s really and save a bunch of $.


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  6. #6
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    Yes, you should.

    And don't take lightly the comments about Enve wheels not feeling as planted in corners either. My Knights feel far more confidence inspiring when descending vs. my Enves. Not sure if it's the shape or width or what but it's very real.

    I used to be full on the Enve bandwagon but I'm off it now. I've found better options. Price is no concern to me, only performance. And as such, Enve is out.
    use a torque wrench

  7. #7
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    I've just taken delivery of Enve's 4.5's with the new braking surface and the Enve's Carbon hubs. It may be the glow of a new purchase but I think they run noticeably smoother than my older ones which had the Chris Kings.

    In relation to OP's question, this brings two points to mind. I think the Enve hubs have DT Swiss internals. Are they smoother than the CKs?

    Second point, the warranty on the Enve hubs is 4 years. What is. The warranty situation with the other options.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by izza View Post
    I've just taken delivery of Enve's 4.5's with the new braking surface and the Enve's Carbon hubs. It may be the glow of a new purchase but I think they run noticeably smoother than my older ones which had the Chris Kings.

    In relation to OP's question, this brings two points to mind. I think the Enve hubs have DT Swiss internals. Are they smoother than the CKs?

    Second point, the warranty on the Enve hubs is 4 years. What is. The warranty situation with the other options.
    Thanks for the reply izza. Nice choice on the 4.5s and enve hubs. Man that set must look awesome and more importantly, ride as nice as you said!

    Do you know how many engagement points are on the Enve hub? I know the DTS 240s have standard 18 whereas the CKr45 have 45. I just prefer hubs that have less "play" and engage quickly. Never owned Dt 240s, so unsure about how they would compare to the Cks.

    Although I was somewhat set on the 2.2s, I really want to make sure I choose the "right" hub for me first.

    BTW: what do you think about the "noise" with the new ENVE braking surface?
    Last edited by Cni2i; 06-09-2016 at 11:57 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Enve..... Lol

  10. #10
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    Enve doesn't make their own hubs!?!? Shocking!! LOL!!!

    First, their wheels suck ass....
    Second, they don't have the brains to develop their own hubs....
    Conclusion, they are Mavic Wheels now.
    Wait..... What?...... Yup, they are owned by the parent company Mavic.... Aka shitty wheels....

    Still trying to to dump my Enve stuff amd stil.... No one interested..... C'Mon people... It's expensive stuff aka really good stuff!! Lol

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keoki View Post
    Enve doesn't make their own hubs!?!? Shocking!! LOL!!!

    First, their wheels suck ass....
    Second, they don't have the brains to develop their own hubs....
    Conclusion, they are Mavic Wheels now.
    Wait..... What?...... Yup, they are owned by the parent company Mavic.... Aka shitty wheels....

    Still trying to to dump my Enve stuff amd stil.... No one interested..... C'Mon people... It's expensive stuff aka really good stuff!! Lol
    let see.. use someone else's hub or have recalls and constant issues...

    if you can't offload your enve stuff, then you are asking too much for it. I got rid of most of mine, but I enjoy the rims so I'm still using them and since I didn't pay retail, I'm not complaining.

    Oh yeah so is my Ferrari a Fiat ?... damn that sucks

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by izza View Post
    I've just taken delivery of Enve's 4.5's with the new braking surface and the Enve's Carbon hubs. It may be the glow of a new purchase but I think they run noticeably smoother than my older ones which had the Chris Kings.
    These are on my short list of wheels - at the risk of going off topic - curious what you think of the new braking track - is it all they claim? Did you by chance weigh them?
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    These are on my short list of wheels - at the risk of going off topic - curious what you think of the new braking track - is it all they claim? Did you by chance weigh them?
    Braking is noisier but feels much better than before. Only one brief go in wet conditions but also felt assured then.

    Didn't weigh - too excited to get them tyred up and on!

  14. #14
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    Take a good look at Fulcrum's new Racing Zero Carbon clinchers. They look to be my next wheels if I can ever afford them.

    I have some ENVE wheels and they're fine but ultimately off-the-shelf components laced together. Campagnolo/Fulcrum wheels have components which are engineered for their specific task.

  15. #15
    Cpark
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    +1 on MMsRepBike's comment.
    I had a pair laced with CX-Ray/Tune hubs and it rubbed like hell.
    I had them re-laced with thicker spokes and it was little better but it still rubbed so much that I had to open the brake calipers to almost 10mm each side.
    I really wanted the wheel-set but I ended up returning them.
    One of very few failed products from Enve line up, IMO....

    These rims are too shallow to be only available in 20/24 spoke pattern.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpark View Post
    +1 on MMsRepBike's comment.
    I had a pair laced with CX-Ray/Tune hubs and it rubbed like hell.
    I had them re-laced with thicker spokes and it was little better but it still rubbed so much that I had to open the brake calipers to almost 10mm each side.
    I really wanted the wheel-set but I ended up returning them.
    One of very few failed products from Enve line up, IMO....

    These rims are too shallow to be only available in 20/24 spoke pattern.
    Yeah. Really seems like hit and miss with these 2.2s. A cycling friend of mine has owned and a set of 2.2s CC with DT Swiss 240s for the past several months. He is a very strong rider (i.e. races and places a lot on both road and mtn bike races). He is about 5'10" and weighs ~155 lbs. He hasn't reported any rubbing issues at all...even out the saddle climbing. Not sure what tire size he is running at this point, but likely 25 mm. Sworks Tarmac size 56. Forget what brakes he is using.

    Also spoke to a fellow cyclist who races for Team Audi who ran the 2.2s tubulars with Tune mig70/mag170. He said no issues with rubbing?

    I used to ride with Enve 25s tubulars with 20/24 spoke pattern with CKr45s for about two years. No brake rubbing issues either? Ee brakes. Also SW Tarmac. 5'8" and 132 lbs.

    So just not sure why some people have this issue and others not so much?






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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by izza View Post
    Braking is noisier but feels much better than before. Only one brief go in wet conditions but also felt assured then.

    Didn't weigh - too excited to get them tyred up and on!
    got my 4.5s today and they weigh 1582g with the rim strips on them so probably 1562 without them.
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  18. #18
    Cpark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    got my 4.5s today and they weigh 1582g with the rim strips on them so probably 1562 without them.
    What kinds of hub and spokes did you use?

    I used Tune hubs with CX-Rays on my 6.7, 4.5 and 2.2 (no longer own because I returned it and being replaced with 3.4) weigh as follow:

    6.7 - 1519g
    4.5 - 1445g
    2.2 - 1321g

    I think that the thicker spokes are better option for the drive side on the rear wheel for Enve CF rims.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpark View Post
    What kinds of hub and spokes did you use?

    I used Tune hubs with CX-Rays on my 6.7, 4.5 and 2.2 (no longer own because I returned it and being replaced with 3.4) weigh as follow:

    6.7 - 1519g
    4.5 - 1445g
    2.2 - 1321g

    I think that the thicker spokes are better option for the drive side on the rear wheel for Enve CF rims.
    I'm guessing yours are tubulars, these are clinchers. These are not custom builds but off the shelf from ENVE - DT Aerolite spokes and DT240 hubs.
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  20. #20
    Cpark
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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    I'm guessing yours are tubulars, these are clinchers. These are not custom builds but off the shelf from ENVE - DT Aerolite spokes and DT240 hubs.
    No, all three of them are clinchers.
    I knew Tune hubs were light but I had no idea they were that light....

    IMG_5273.JPG
    IMG_5274 (2).JPGIMG_5275.JPG

  21. #21
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    Those are light! Very impressive.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpark View Post
    No, all three of them are clinchers.
    I knew Tune hubs were light but I had no idea they were that light....

    IMG_5273.JPG
    IMG_5274 (2).JPGIMG_5275.JPG
    I got you beat by a little 1377g with extralites

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