First Wheel Build Help
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  1. #1
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    First Wheel Build Help

    I've built a front wheel without any issue whatsoever, it turned out great. The problem lies with the rear wheel. I can get it dished and trued, however once I get it there the DS spokes are way too tight and the NDS spokes are quite loose, too loose to ride. I made sure that I have the right length spokes on each side of the wheel, I'm using the spoke lengths given to me by from where I purchased from FYI.

    I'm not sure where I'm going wrong. I lace it up, tightened everything down with a nipple driver, and then tightened as per Munson's book. I must be doing something wrong!

    Please help, I'm losing riding time as I have no other rear wheel at the moment.

  2. #2
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    if your dish is correct, the spoke length seems to be the issue assuming you laced them as originally calculated by whoever did the spoke length calc.

    what hub, what lacing, what rim ERD?

    EDIT TO ADD: check to see if you used the right side spokes on the left side or vice versa

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    if your dish is correct, the spoke length seems to be the issue assuming you laced them as originally calculated by whoever did the spoke length calc.

    what hub, what lacing, what rim ERD?

    EDIT TO ADD: check to see if you used the right side spokes on the left side or vice versa
    I checked this morning and confirmed that the shorter spokes are DS and the longer are NDS.

    I used a 2x lacing and a 28 hole Kinlin XR-300.
    Rim ERD:577

    Hub Stuff
    Lenth: 130mm
    Driveside PCD: 49.3mm
    Non-Driveside PCD: 38.4mm
    Hole Diamter: 2.7mm
    Left (NDS) Flange-to-Center: 37.75mm
    Right (DS) Flange-to-Center: 16.75mm

  4. #4
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    Here's the numbers I got:

    Drive Side: 274mm
    Non Drive: 278mm

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zen Cyclery View Post
    Here's the numbers I got:

    Drive Side: 274mm
    Non Drive: 278mm
    I used 273 DS and 279 NDS.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocklax View Post
    I used 273 DS and 279 NDS.
    Did the NDS spokes bottom out? How have you determined the spokes to be be too tight on the DS?

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikerp View Post
    Did the NDS spokes bottom out? How have you determined the spokes to be be too tight on the DS?
    The spokes on the DS become VERY hard to turn and have unpleasant pings when I turn them. Even when they are at that point, and the wheel is dished according to a dish tool, the NDS spokes are barley tensioned.

  8. #8
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    Did you use something on the threads and lube the nipples? The DS will have~2x the force of the NDS for "most" builds.

    Another thought, verify the spoke length, maybe you didn't get what you ordered.
    Last edited by mikerp; 05-03-2013 at 10:03 AM.

  9. #9
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    your spoke lengths are pretty close to where you need to be (the left is 0.9mm off but it still within the 1mm tolerance) so I dont think this explains what is happening.

    Did you verify the ERD yourself or you used the published value? Same with the hubs?

    From the dimensions you posted, it looks like BHS SL211 hubs. Have you talked to Brandon about verifying the dimensions for you?

    I'm assuming your allready have checked the lacing you have done and found it to be correct.

  10. #10
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    I did email Brandon and just went with his published numbers. I have a buddy who is bringing his cheap tensiometer tomorrow morning to see what is what.

    I also double checked and my lacing is correct. I just again took the rim down.

    I tightened everything with the nipple driver.
    I then took one pass where I tightened everything with 1 full turn.
    Quick truing.
    Then dished the wheel, half turns, then quarter turns per time around.
    Just to see where my tension is I went all the way around 1/2 turn.

    It still seems super tights on the DS and lax on the NDS.

    FYI, for whomever asked, I used good old 5w30 motor oil on the threads.

  11. #11
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    For your 2x/2x the tension ratio is 45% so if you keep the S at 125 kgf expect around 56 kgf on the NDS.

    Sometimes it also helps to grease inside the rim drilling and also the nipple shoulders.

    BTW, what exactly to you mean when you said " I tightened everything with the nipple driver"? Until it disengaged like Musson suggests? Or simply, until you just covered the spoke threads?

    Also, I have to ask....are you clear on how to use the dish tool? did you put the wheel on the bike to see if it is indeed dished?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    For your 2x/2x the tension ratio is 45% so if you keep the S at 125 kgf expect around 56 kgf on the NDS.

    Sometimes it also helps to grease inside the rim drilling and also the nipple shoulders.

    BTW, what exactly to you mean when you said " I tightened everything with the nipple driver"? Until it disengaged like Musson suggests? Or simply, until you just covered the spoke threads?

    Also, I have to ask....are you clear on how to use the dish tool? did you put the wheel on the bike to see if it is indeed dished?
    I used the nipple driver until it disengaged.

    With the dish tool I put it to the DS, then I switched it over to the NDS (there was a gap). I then tightened the DS spokes until there way no gap either side.

    Hope that is correct.

  13. #13
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    Be specific....which way was the gap....was the tool gauge between the locknut and the flange or was outside the locknut?

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    Sorry, the gap was outside of the locknut on the NDS. I then tightened the DS spokes time by time until there was no gap on the gauge to the locknut on either side of the wheel (DS or NDS).

  15. #15
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    I think this is where your built went wrong.

    Put the dishing tool on the DS and adjust it so it just touches the outside side of the locknut. Then flip it on the NDS. If the tool pointer is outside of the locknut (not between the locknut and the hub flange) the spokes need loosening to push the axle back.
    Its easy to go the wrong way on this. The easiest way to check this until you become more familiar is to put the wheel on the bike and see where it is.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    I think this is where your built went wrong.

    Put the dishing tool on the DS and adjust it so it just touches the outside side of the locknut. Then flip it on the NDS. If the tool pointer is outside of the locknut (not between the locknut and the hub flange) the spokes need loosening to push the axle back.
    Its easy to go the wrong way on this. The easiest way to check this until you become more familiar is to put the wheel on the bike and see where it is.
    Which spokes need loosening in your scenerio, DS or NDS? I am a bit confused as well as that my wheel is dished and true at the moment, and it looks dished and ready to go on the bike as well. I just can't imagine riding it with the amount of tension on the NDS.

  17. #17
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    First the NDS but maybe both, depending how big the gap is.

    You said you have Musson's book. Look at the wheelbuilding chapter. He has a picture in there that explains which side to pull the axle based on where the dish pointer points. For instanse, if the dish pointer was on the inside side of the locknut then you would want to bring the axle over by tightening the NDS spokes.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    First the NDS but maybe both, depending how big the gap is.

    You said you have Musson's book. Look at the wheelbuilding chapter. He has a picture in there that explains which side to pull the axle based on where the dish pointer points. For instanse, if the dish pointer was on the inside side of the locknut then you would want to bring the axle over by tightening the NDS spokes.
    I did that, I read the book cover to cover prior to even touching a wheel. Maybe I'm just paranoid regarding the tension. On the stand and on the bike the wheel appears to be true and dished.

    I had a gap to start with where the dishing tool was outside of the locknut on the NDS, as per Munson's book I then tightened the DS spokes. The next time I measured the gap had decreased. I did that until there wasn't any gap anywhere on either side.

    Like I said maybe since its my first go round I'm just worried about the tension too much...

  19. #19
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    You are mixing things up now.

    If the dishing tool pointer points outside the NDS locknut after is made flush with the DS locknut, then you need to loosen the NDS not tighten it. Tightening it makes the gap larger.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    You are mixing things up now.

    If the dishing tool pointer points outside the NDS locknut after is made flush with the DS locknut, then you need to loosen the NDS not tighten it. Tightening it makes the gap larger.
    I never touched the NDS, I tightened the DS. The NDS spokes are the ones that, to me, see quite loose. If I loosen the NDS more there will be almost no tension at all.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocklax View Post
    I never touched the NDS, I tightened the DS. The NDS spokes are the ones that, to me, see quite loose. If I loosen the NDS more there will be almost no tension at all.
    Let's see what the tensions show with your buddies meter.

  22. #22
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    First Wheel Build Help

    When dishing you adjust the side that is out of dish, not the opposite. The opposite side is your benchmark. So if you start with equaling out the DS and you check the NDS for offset then you adjust the NDS; if you adjust the DS you are altering your benchmark.

    If you find the spokes have no tension then you are trying to dish too early in the process. Take the slack off, adjust for lateral trueness, adjust for radial trueness, equalize spoke tensions and then check for dish and finish with the final tension.

    I don't know what else to tell you. If you believe your dish is correct and you put the spokes on the right side and you laced it right but have no tension on the NDS and too much tension on the DS, then the spoke length does not represent the rim and hub dimensions.

    From your earlier descriptions of what you did during dishing it seems to me that there has been a bit of confusion on the dishing part but if you are certain you did it correctly I will not insist.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikerp View Post
    Did the NDS spokes bottom out? How have you determined the spokes to be be too tight on the DS?
    Bingo! It makes no difference whether the spokes are exactly the right length. If they bottomed out in the nipple from being too long this would explain a too-low NDS tension but that is the only way. If the spokes were too short it would only mean that the nipples weren't engaged enough but it wouldn't change the tension. The only effect of longer or shorter spokes is where how far the nipple is threaded on - tension will not change.

    My money is on the wheel being improperly dished. The OP should put the wheel in a frame and check clearance between the rim and a chain stay then flip the wheel around and checke the clearance again. I'm thinking operator error on the use of the dishing gauge.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocklax View Post
    I did email Brandon and just went with his published numbers. I have a buddy who is bringing his cheap tensiometer tomorrow morning to see what is what.
    What were the results on with the tension-meter?

  25. #25
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    He forgot it, go figure. We both rechecked the dish, it was correct. I put the wheel on the bike and flipped it, dish was correct. He thought I was being obsessive about the spoke tension. We road for about 90 minutes, noticed no problems with the wheel, got home and checked the dish again it was fine. Some spokes had loosened a bit but no issue.

    Guess my tension was a non issue. That being said my next paycheck I'm buying a cheap tensionmeter just for another (although not definitive) frame of reference.

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