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  1. #1
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    DT Squorx Nipples?

    Hey all, I'm attempting to build my first wheel - and using this regular old spoke wrench is driving me crazy. Then I say this video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw25tqAcn_4

    Anyone ever use Squorx nips? This looks so much easier! Do you have to use specific DT products with these nips?

    I'm assuming he's using this tool?
    Last edited by jmcg333; 04-06-2018 at 06:17 AM.

  2. #2
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    I believe the Squorx nips require a special spoke wrench. Others here may know more about them. I've never used them.

    For standard nips, my favorite spoke wrench is the P&K Lie:

    P&K Lie Spoke Wrench - Wheel Fanatyk

    I like it much better than the Park Tool spoke wrenches. Some may consider it expensive, but IMO, if there is one wheel building tool you shouldn't skimp on, it's a good spoke wrench.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  3. #3
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    Yeah, that wrench is specifically for Squorx nipple.

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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by bvber View Post
    Yeah, that wrench is specifically for Squorx nipple.

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    Can I use these nips with DT Comp spokes + any rim?

  5. #5
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    You "Could" but, if this is your first wheel build, ask yourself "Should I"? I'd never heard of these nipples until I followed the link to the tool above. That nipple requires all adjustments to be made from inside the rims and that would be a major drawback for me. I've worked on deep section carbon rims with internal nipples and just finding the nipple in the blind is a major time waster. Not to mention how many times you will do that as you tighten the spokes and fine tune the tensions. Also, if you don't get that wrench squarely on those splines and you round off a few.......you won't be able to tighten that spoke properly.

    As tension increases towards the end of a build, you have a lot of force being exerted on the nipple that you have to deal with. I want all four sides of the wrench to grip the entire nipple, not the splines on those nipples.

    Your $$$, your wheels, but not where I would head if it were my first wheel building effort.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by cdhbrad View Post
    You "Could" but, if this is your first wheel build, ask yourself "Should I"? I'd never heard of these nipples until I followed the link to the tool above. That nipple requires all adjustments to be made from inside the rims and that would be a major drawback for me. I've worked on deep section carbon rims with internal nipples and just finding the nipple in the blind is a major time waster. Not to mention how many times you will do that as you tighten the spokes and fine tune the tensions. Also, if you don't get that wrench squarely on those splines and you round off a few.......you won't be able to tighten that spoke properly.

    As tension increases towards the end of a build, you have a lot of force being exerted on the nipple that you have to deal with. I want all four sides of the wrench to grip the entire nipple, not the splines on those nipples.

    Your $$$, your wheels, but not where I would head if it were my first wheel building effort.
    I should add that some of DT's rims say they require using these nipples. When I asked the wheelbuilder at my shop about getting these for my next build, he told me they're a real PITA.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  7. #7
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    For a first time wheel build, the last thing you need to worry about is build speed.

    A Squorx driver IMHO would only speed up the process of initial lacing, as it can be a bit fiddly getting nipples into holes of deep section rims. However, once the nipple is in the rim hole, it would be hard to beat the speed of Park's standard ND-1 tool for pre-tensioning, and works with much more commonly available slotted head nipples. And for those not in a rush, a standard slotted screw driver is plenty workable, and in skilled hands can be just about as fast.

    I've had to build/true many a wheel using a nut driver, where the proprietary nipples/nuts are entirely within the rim. I find it much slower having to feel around for the nipple hole then nipple head with a nut driver while trying to keep my eyes focused on the spoke side of the rim where I need to make the set of adjustments. A regular spoke wrench lets me keep my focus on the spoke side of the rim, and with a good spoke wrench I can adjust half a dozen spokes in the time it would take you to adjust one spoke with a nut or squorx driver - for which you have to find the hole by feel, then align the wrench to the nipple head.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmcg333 View Post
    Can I use these nips with DT Comp spokes + any rim?
    I'm about to build a set of wheels for the first time myself. I want this to go as smoothly as possible and wouldn't get into those proprietary parts. All the parts I bought are very common stuff. If you want to turn the nipple from the outside (where tire sits), use regular screw driver. Once the tires are mounted, it's all tuned from inside (where nipples meet spokes) anyway.

  9. #9
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    The only thing different about these nipples is that they're longer on the backside and they don't have a screw slot. The lack of screw slot makes it less convenient if you use an auto-eject screwdriver for initial spoke tension (which we do) but other than that, there is zero difference between using them and normal spokes. They are also way more tolerant of spokes that are too long.

    As a credential, I have probably built 30 wheels with these things. Has anyone else commenting even done one?

    FWIW, I have absolutely zero idea why DT would require the use of these. The nipple to rim (or washer, since many/most of their rims now require washers) interface is exactly the same as with their other nipples.

    Between this and the spokes pinging thread, there's been a bunch of questionable info here lately.

  10. #10
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    Dave: As I mentioned in my post above, I had never even heard of these nipples and, as such, may have assumed too much by just looking at the picture of the tool and the nipple. If, by stating "other than that, there is zero difference between using them and normal spokes" do you mean a conventional spoke wrench can be used on the flats? I guess I didn't see how you would use a conventional spoke wrench effectively on what looks like about 1/3 of the total length of the nipple above the spoke bed of the rim as there is little material to grasp with the wrench. Of course, looks like I was wrong.

    I'm a fan of Sapim spokes and nipples and will stick with those for my builds.

  11. #11
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    We have a 4mm driver for internal nipples, which gets used when we build Enve rims. Apart from that, the only spoke wrenches we even have are normal external ones. These nipples have no requirement for being internally driven, and yes you just turn them by a normal wrench on the flats.

    Not meaning to sound like a pedantic twat, but a lot of people get a lot of info on these and other forums, and I wind up spending a ton of time undoing misinformation. "I don't know" is one of the most powerful phrases in the English language, and one I use all the time (although "I don't know and I'll do my best to find out" is more powerful and preferred).

  12. #12
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    Curious then as to why DT would sell a tool for them that "seems" to imply the need to drive them internally? The DT video also showed them only being driven internally, using that tool, so I assumed that was how they had to be tightened.

    Live and Learn. Thanks for the information.

  13. #13
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    Search me, I don't have an answer for about 95% of the crap that the bike industry does. That tool is 100% unnecessary for building with those nipples.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    As a credential, I have probably built 30 wheels with these things. Has anyone else commenting even done one?
    Point well taken. The info I posted is what I saw on DT's site and what the wheelbuilder in my shop told me about these nipples. It's very possible he hasn't built with them. Ignorance=fear.

    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    These nipples have no requirement for being internally driven, and yes you just turn them by a normal wrench on the flats.
    Good to know!

    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Not meaning to sound like a pedantic twat, but a lot of people get a lot of info on these and other forums, and I wind up spending a ton of time undoing misinformation.

    Between this and the spokes pinging thread, there's been a bunch of questionable info here lately.
    I'm sure most of us are happy to have you clear it up for us.

    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    "I don't know" is one of the most powerful phrases in the English language, and one I use all the time (although "I don't know and I'll do my best to find out" is more powerful and preferred).
    Oh com'on Dave, this is the internet, everybody knows everything!

    Seriously, you are correct.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  15. #15
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    I would be willing to bet that they are more designed for machine built wheels.

    Dave, why do you say that they are more tolerant of too long of spokes. My experience is that if a spoke is more than a couple mm too long the nipple bottoms out on the thread. Do these threads start deeper in the nipple?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by akamp View Post
    I would be willing to bet that they are more designed for machine built wheels.

    Dave, why do you say that they are more tolerant of too long of spokes. My experience is that if a spoke is more than a couple mm too long the nipple bottoms out on the thread. Do these threads start deeper in the nipple?
    I am guessing what Dave meant to say is that these nipples are more tolerant of variations in spoke length. If you look at these nipples compared to standard nipples where the part that widens is at the top, assuming the thread goes up into that extended part, you can see why.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Between this and the spokes pinging thread, there's been a bunch of questionable info here lately.
    Tell us what that is. Make us smart!
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I am guessing what Dave meant to say is that these nipples are more tolerant of variations in spoke length. If you look at these nipples compared to standard nipples where the part that widens is at the top, assuming the thread goes up into that extended part, you can see why.
    You still only have 10mm of thread on the spoke. Unless the threading starts closer to the rim and the nipple is made to use a longer spoke you would still bottom out the treads. If the nipple is made to use a longer spoke it would put more mass behind the wall of the rim and make for a longer lasting nipple as the heads would be less likely to pop off as they age.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by akamp View Post
    You still only have 10mm of thread on the spoke. Unless the threading starts closer to the rim and the nipple is made to use a longer spoke you would still bottom out the treads. If the nipple is made to use a longer spoke it would put more mass behind the wall of the rim and make for a longer lasting nipple as the heads would be less likely to pop off as they age.
    I believe this is what Dave was trying to say.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  20. #20
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    The threaded area inside the nipple is way longer, so while you still have only 10mm of thread on the spoke, you have much more than normal threading inside the spoke. Theoretically, spokes "bottom out" when the spoke's thread ends. In actual practice, this doesn't happen. What does happen is that the nipple's thread lightly scores a thread into the spoke. It's nowhere near as deep as the ~.25mm threading that a normal spoke thread would have, it's noticeable on the spoke barrel when you inspect it after doing it, but it's nothing like as deep as a proper thread. Accurately gauge the threaded area of a spoke sometime and you'll see that the top of the threads measures roughly 2.25mm on a standard 2mm spoke.

    So when you use a normal nipple and your spoke is a little long, in truth it isn't so much that you're going to bottom the spoke out, it's that you are losing thread contact area. With these, that doesn't happen unless you have a spoke that's REALLY too long.

    There is some minimal loss of spoke material if you do this, and there is some element of a stress riser as you score the thread onto the spoke (proper spoke threads are rolled, not cut). But if that material were ever so precious, you wouldn't see 1.8mm spokes and nipples in use. It's not best practice, and we still size spokes very accurately to end up in the nipple head when using these nipples, but for an amateur builder without tools or resources to get really accurate spoke lengths, they can paper over some small cracks. And if you have a fairly cheap Hozan thread roller, you could theoretically roll an extra few mm of threads onto the spokes and really give yourself some breathing room.

    Having both a very expensive and complicated Phil Wood spoke machine and a couple of Hozan thread rollers, the thread rolling function of the Phil machine is convenient and awesome, but the ability to accurately cut spokes to length is fricking VITAL. The Hozan tools, which are under 3% of the price of a Phil or Morizumi spoke machine, are able to roll fully serviceable threads.

    Mike T - I responded to the other thing about spoke pinging in the other thread. Who's your bet for tomorrow? I'm going with Gilbert, Quick Step is too strong and they'll be trying to get him closer to the lifetime monument sweep. He's also been the planet's best team mate for the past month and merits some payback, plus he's in amazing shape.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Mike T - Who's your bet for tomorrow? I'm going with Gilbert, Quick Step is too strong and they'll be trying to get him closer to the lifetime monument sweep. He's also been the planet's best team mate for the past month and merits some payback, plus he's in amazing shape.
    My pic? "Anyone But Sagan" is my choice. Sure he's a great rider in what he has won but last weekend's whining about why he lost was just too much. He blamed everyone but himself and his (cough) "team". I watched the race live and he expected to wheelsuck while others make the race for him and then sprint at the finish. The greatest of the great don't ride like that. They have balls and they make their own race and sometimes they win really big. So hats off to guys like Cancellara, Terpstra, Kwiat (in his world's win), Gilbert, Boonen and others who gamble 10-50km from the line.

    Who would I really like to see win? Ok here's a long-shot but maybe he's the future - Van Aert. They should have left all that mud on the cobbles for him though.

    Mike T - I responded to the other thing about spoke pinging in the other thread.
    Yeah I saw that. I personally don't know or care why spokes ping. To me it's not worth spending time trying to analyze it. I just know it's probably not good and I know how to make it not happen post wheelbuilding table.
    Last edited by Mike T.; 04-07-2018 at 04:59 AM.
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  22. #22
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    So it wasn't your preferred outcome, but that was entertaining and he didn't leave a lot of room for argument did he? Jeez. I'd put money on Wout lifting a cobble sometime before he's done. To ride that strongly in EVERY classic his first year out, fresh off of a chock full CX season that resulted in a WC win? Damn. Kid sure does drop his chain a lot though!

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    So it wasn't your preferred outcome, but that was entertaining and he didn't leave a lot of room for argument did he? Jeez. I'd put money on Wout lifting a cobble sometime before he's done. To ride that strongly in EVERY classic his first year out, fresh off of a chock full CX season that resulted in a WC win? Damn. Kid sure does drop his chain a lot though!
    Yup yup and yup. I was going "So, what you guys gonna do about this?" The answer, I guess, was "nothing". Wout looked really good until the mechanical. He deserved better - like 4th or 5th place maybe. Dillier did the ride of his life and what was even better was that he didn't shirk his duties. And it was noticed that Terpstra didn't blame everyone else in the race for him not winning - unlike Sagan the week before.
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  24. #24
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    I've built about 10 or 12 sets of wheels in the last 10 years. All turned out great. My last build was Arc27 rims with Sapim race spokes and Squorx Al nipples. They are a pleasure to build with if you get the Torx tool. They still have normal external nipple flats for future truing, without removing tire/rim strip. I highly recommend them.

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