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  1. #26
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    [QUOTE=Lombard;5222910]
    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    I'm running 25s which work well for me. And yes, I am looking at the DT Swiss offerings. Strange, though, their allow rims are pretty narrow.

    Really? I just looked and everything I see is either 18 or 20mm internal width.



    You won't go wrong here as long as you don't mind having a brake track on a disc brake setup. Another good choice would be the H Plus Son Archetype. They have a brake track, but it is anodized in the same color as the rim, so you won't notice it very easily.
    I was looking at the PR series, the 1400. Other models do have a wider width and I am looking at them. If I can't get the HED built for discs, I won't go that way. Not worried, there's lots of choices. To muddy the waters I friend has a set of Roval CLX 32 wheels he'll sell me for about $1500. He no longer needs them, and the only have about 500 miles on them. Tempting...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    Personally I go about 85ish rear/75ish front at 170lbs with 25mm tires mounted on a 24mm internal width rim. That said, I wouldn't say 105/95 is crazy high. Generally for any tire I draw the line at around 100psi...if more pressure is needed what you really need is a bigger tire, but if you've messed around with it and decided on 105 I'd only make a half-hearted attempt to change your mind.
    Disclaimer: my reading is based on the gauge on the pump. It might be reading high, so maybe I'll get a real gauge and check it.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    I weigh 175# and have found that running about 105 in the back tire and 95 in the front is what works for me. I honestly don't care what anyone else runs; this is what works for me, my weight, my bike, and my riding.
    When you say "works for me" are you saying that you need these pressures to prevent pinch flats or are you saying you like how the tires feel at those pressures? You're not using outrageous pressures but many people at your weight would be running 10 psi lower and thereby getting better tire wear, better traction, and more comfort. If you're getting pinch flats at pressures below what you are running then you should consider wider tires or more careful riding to avoid hitting the things that cause pinch flats.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    When you say "works for me" are you saying that you need these pressures to prevent pinch flats or are you saying you like how the tires feel at those pressures? You're not using outrageous pressures but many people at your weight would be running 10 psi lower and thereby getting better tire wear, better traction, and more comfort. If you're getting pinch flats at pressures below what you are running then you should consider wider tires or more careful riding to avoid hitting the things that cause pinch flats.
    ^This^...word for word. There is no arguing w/ physics.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerry Irons View Post
    When you say "works for me" are you saying that you need these pressures to prevent pinch flats or are you saying you like how the tires feel at those pressures? You're not using outrageous pressures but many people at your weight would be running 10 psi lower and thereby getting better tire wear, better traction, and more comfort. If you're getting pinch flats at pressures below what you are running then you should consider wider tires or more careful riding to avoid hitting the things that cause pinch flats.
    Ride, feel, and handling. I don't have any problems with pinch flats, so I arrived at my current preference based on ride quality. I've ridden them at pressures from 85 to 110 and landed where I did based on experience.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    I was looking at the PR series, the 1400. Other models do have a wider width and I am looking at them. If I can't get the HED built for discs, I won't go that way. Not worried, there's lots of choices. To muddy the waters I friend has a set of Roval CLX 32 wheels he'll sell me for about $1500. He no longer needs them, and the only have about 500 miles on them. Tempting...
    I don't see why you couldn't get the HED C2s built for discs. Whether they will work for disc brakes depends on the hubs you choose. The rims don't care that you won't be using the brake track on them.

    Between the DT Swiss 1400 PR series and the Rovals, I would choose the DT Swiss. That being said, I don't really like the both of these have such a low spoke count for a disc brake wheel set. I would want at least 28 spokes per wheel on a disc brake wheel set and preferably 32. Keep in mind that disc braking puts tremendous forces on your hubs and spokes.

    If it were me, I would lace the HED C2s with a pair of Shimano RS770 or White Industries CLD hubs.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  7. #32
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    I'm riding wheels with a 24 spoke count now, and pretty much every disc wheel set I see has a 24 count, so I'm not concerned about that. The only exception I've seen is the Reynolds Aero 46db which has (gasp...) a 20 spoke count on the front wheel. I get to try the Rovals before I have to buy them, so I'll give them a shot for a week or two and then decide.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    I'm riding wheels with a 24 spoke count now, and pretty much every disc wheel set I see has a 24 count, so I'm not concerned about that. The only exception I've seen is the Reynolds Aero 46db which has (gasp...) a 20 spoke count on the front wheel. I get to try the Rovals before I have to buy them, so I'll give them a shot for a week or two and then decide.
    Gasp is right! I certainly wouldn't do a 20 spoke db wheel. If going with a reliable brand like DT Swiss or HED, 24 is probably OK, but probably won't feel as stable and stiff as a 32 spoke. At least this is what I have noticed from my own experience.

    My point is more that there is no real valid reason to build such low spoke count wheels. If it's weight, you save about 10g per spoke - BFD! So why do so many high end wheels have such low spoke counts? Here is an article definitely worth reading:

    Debunking Wheel Stiffness - Slowtwitch.com

    "Why, then, don’t they use more spokes? Two words – fashion and weight. Fewer spokes look cool, and look better on-paper to the gram counters. I agreed to keep any official comments off-the-record from all manufacturers in this regard… but all of them had similar answers - sex sells."
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Gasp is right! I certainly wouldn't do a 20 spoke db wheel. If going with a reliable brand like DT Swiss or HED, 24 is probably OK, but probably won't feel as stable and stiff as a 32 spoke. At least this is what I have noticed from my own experience.

    My point is more that there is no real valid reason to build such low spoke count wheels. If it's weight, you save about 10g per spoke - BFD! So why do so many high end wheels have such low spoke counts? Here is an article definitely worth reading:

    Debunking Wheel Stiffness - Slowtwitch.com

    "Why, then, don’t they use more spokes? Two words – fashion and weight. Fewer spokes look cool, and look better on-paper to the gram counters. I agreed to keep any official comments off-the-record from all manufacturers in this regard… but all of them had similar answers - sex sells."
    I guess I'll find out next week when I give the Rovals a shot. Very light, 24 spokes per wheel, and no low PSI limit. If not, I give them back and move on. Also, while you make valid points I have to believe the major wheel builders know what they're doing. DT Swiss, HED, Roval, and others all sell db wheels with 24 spokes. I doubt they'd risk their reputation on something so easily addressed.

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    I guess I'll find out next week when I give the Rovals a shot. Very light, 24 spokes per wheel, and no low PSI limit. If not, I give them back and move on. Also, while you make valid points I have to believe the major wheel builders know what they're doing. DT Swiss, HED, Roval, and others all sell db wheels with 24 spokes. I doubt they'd risk their reputation on something so easily addressed.
    They know the wheels are *flexible* in certain ways but it doesn't really matter because there aren't any rim brake pads to rub against. The wheels are plenty stiff in the vertical plane but the rim will definitely move side to side...it's not really flexing, the low spoke count is letting it move laterally. It doesn't hurt anything, really.

    I might start bugging you about your pressure preference though...I just can't understand why someone would want less ride quality, less traction, and slightly higher rolling resistance.
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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    They know the wheels are *flexible* in certain ways but it doesn't really matter because there aren't any rim brake pads to rub against. The wheels are plenty stiff in the vertical plane but the rim will definitely move side to side...it's not really flexing, the low spoke count is letting it move laterally. It doesn't hurt anything, really.

    I might start bugging you about your pressure preference though...I just can't understand why someone would want less ride quality, less traction, and slightly higher rolling resistance.
    Bug me all you want, but I'm betting my 43 years of experience riding trump your opinion of what I should or shouldn't like. :-P

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    They know the wheels are *flexible* in certain ways but it doesn't really matter because there aren't any rim brake pads to rub against.
    No brake pads to rub against, true. But there is still a bike frame to rub against. Most road bikes already have a very tight clearance between the chain stays. There is visual evidence of tire rub on my stays when I was using flexier wheels.

    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    The wheels are plenty stiff in the vertical plane but the rim will definitely move side to side...it's not really flexing, the low spoke count is letting it move laterally. It doesn't hurt anything, really.
    For me at least, there is definitely a different feel. A higher spoke wheel feels more stable and confidence inspiring. But that's just me. As the saying goes, YMMV.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmanthree View Post
    Bug me all you want, but I'm betting my 43 years of experience riding trump your opinion of what I should or shouldn't like. :-P
    when did you determine your preferred pressure? I used to run the same pressure, but its dropped in the last couple years in response to equipment changes, even with the same tires. (moving from 17->20->25mm rims)

    My dad inadvertently made the same change, but still insists on running 100/105psi

    How about h son hydras for rims?

    just want you to be happy 👬

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by bubble View Post
    How about h son hydras for rims?
    Those have a 20.5mm internal width. The OP should make sure his preferred tire size fits.
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



  15. #40
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    BTW, I lied. The Roval CLX 32 only has 21 spokes on the front wheel. It uses a 2x lacing on the rotor side and straight lacing on the other side. The rear is 24 spokes with a 2:1 spoke count, cluster vs rotor side. I'll give them a shot and see how it goes.

  16. #41
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    From HED's blog:

    The maximum pressure you should ever need to use on any Hed Plus or BLACK rim is 90 psi (6.2 bar) – even with a narrow 23mm tire. It’s true! We’re not kidding!

    That’s not because 100 psi is dangerous for our rim, but because the ideal range is 65-80 psi for a 77kg (170lb) athlete. As a point of reference, the old school method said that higher pressure was always better, with many athletes using 120 psi or more for a 23mm tire.

    Let’s look at a specific example to explain why this is the case. A 23mm Continental GP 4000 tire mounted on a rim with an external width of 19mm (an old-school skinny rim) has an air volume of 660ml. The same tire at the same pressure on a 25mm-wide Hed Plus rim has a volume of 958ml. In effect, the same tire is 33% larger on the Plus rim. The actual measured width of the tire grows from 23mm on the skinny rim to about 26mm on the Plus rim. So – it’s not really a 23mm tire anymore.

    What are the benefits of using lower pressure? Two key things: Comfort and Speed. A larger tire puts more physical space between your rim and the road. With lower pressure, the bigger tire can compress more to absorb bumps, without having the rim bottom out and hit the pavement (which can damage the rim or pinch-flat the inner tube). The bigger the tire, the lower you can go on pressure. Of course, if you run the pressure TOO low, rim impacts can still happen


    https://www.hedcycling.com/blog/road...-black-wheels/

  17. #42
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    Good post
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  18. #43
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    Makes me wonder... I changed the tires on my commuter Giant hybrid. 18mm internal width rim, went from 32mm hybrid tires inflated at 65 psi to 28mm road slicks inflated at 80. Changed the rim tape to road rim tape prior to that. Could the narrower tire and added pressure be an issue to the rim itself? I would never have thought.

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post
    Makes me wonder... I changed the tires on my commuter Giant hybrid. 18mm internal width rim, went from 32mm hybrid tires inflated at 65 psi to 28mm road slicks inflated at 80. Changed the rim tape to road rim tape prior to that. Could the narrower tire and added pressure be an issue to the rim itself? I would never have thought.
    I wouldn't think you'd have any problems w/ what you're doing.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post
    Makes me wonder... I changed the tires on my commuter Giant hybrid. 18mm internal width rim, went from 32mm hybrid tires inflated at 65 psi to 28mm road slicks inflated at 80. Changed the rim tape to road rim tape prior to that. Could the narrower tire and added pressure be an issue to the rim itself? I would never have thought.
    I have 18mm internal width rims on a road bike which I use 28mm tires on. No problems. If you look at this chart, you will see you are well within acceptable range:

    https://dycteyr72g97f.cloudfront.net...WEB_ZZ_001.pdf
    "With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."-- DCGriz, RBR.

    “Statistics are like bikinis. What they reveal is suggestive, but what they conceal is vital.” -- Aaron Levenstein



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