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  1. #1
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    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding

    Hello! I own a pair of old Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes, they are pre-2000.Those hubs are easy to maintain and change bearings in my LBS.I would like to build a wheelset for Audax riding and maybe some very light gravel / forest riding, but no MTB-ing.LBS recommend I get Mavic Open Pros, but they are notorious with problems with noise and eyelets, and a friend of mine had horribles problems with his rims.I will buy from bike-components, since I am located in Europe.They stock most Mavic rims, as well as the excellent - looking DT SWISS 535.
    I would not ride with narrower that 700 x 32mm tyres.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame should have clearance for 35-40mm tyres.I was thinking of Vittoria Voyager 700 x 35mm tyres, what are 400g in their folding version.I ride Audax on some quite horrible roads with endless potholes, so I want light, but durable rims.Rider weight is 200 lbs / 90 kg.
    The bike-components.de website stocks DT SWISS 535 and Mavic A719 for 20 € each.They are both identical in weight, and 622 x 19C, which means I can safely run as wide as my frame allows it.Which one should I get and why ? The 622 x 15C rims, Mavic CXP 33 and Open Pro are more than twice the price at 50 €.They are a tad lighter and I wonder if a slow guy like me can benefit from that.My average speed is 22 km/h, which is about 13 - 14 mph.I am confused...

  2. #2
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    I can highly reccomend H+Son Archetype rims - available in 36H.

    They are new wider style, well made, sturdy and build up very easily.

    In the US they can be bought in the $50-$65 range.

    H Plus Son — Archetype
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  3. #3
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    Velocity A23, H+Sons, HED Belgiums.

    Have no idea on cost or availability over the pond. But I have used the A23s on a few sets, and the HED. Like the HEDs better, but double the cost here. Not tried the Archetypes, yet. May be next on my list after a friend built up a set and spoke highly.


    FWIW, I have some Conti Speed Ride 42C that are really about 38-9. I have had them on both 19C and 15C rims. My observation is that when you get over 30mm or so on a tire, the wider rim make less of a profile difference on the way the tire sits.

    Example; The Speed Ride is only about 1 mm wider and lower on the wider rim. Where-as a 25-7mm road tire has more of a 2-3mm difference of the ones I have had on both rims. Also, the feel and improvement IMO, I only notice when I run a 23-5 on the wider rims. YMMV.

  4. #4
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    Thanks! It seems that Mr. Julio is always helpful, when I need some advice.Unfortunately, those rims are way too expensive and I would not spend a fortune on rims.I know an MTB racer who owns a state of the art $ 5000 bike, and rides it with the cheapest rims - as they are just like napkins - should be cheap and easy to throw away, he says.
    I forgot to mention that I will be using mini - V - brakes, the TRP CX 8.4 ones.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame does not support disc brakes.
    And finally, the Archetype shop from the link says they do not ship to Bulgaria.Some German shops carry it, but they will be twice the price, compared to both Mavic A719 and DT SWISS 535 rims.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    rides it with the cheapest rims - as they are just like napkins - should be cheap and easy to throw away, he says.

    As long as they are stiff enough. For example I do like the HED better in this dept over the A23s. I have fronts built with 24 Spoke HED, and 28 and 32 Spoke A23 wheels all same Shimano hub dimensions and same Sapim Race spokes. The 24 spoke HED wheel is stiffer laterally.

    So honestly for wheel i will be riding, I take the comment "cheap and easy to throw away" with a grain of spoke prep. No disrespect to your friend. How much he weighs and size of rims being factors. 26er wheel is inherently stiffer than any 700C I ride I would guess.

  6. #6
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    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Hello! I own a pair of old Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes, they are pre-2000.Those hubs are easy to maintain and change bearings in my LBS.I would like to build a wheelset for Audax riding and maybe some very light gravel / forest riding, but no MTB-ing.LBS recommend I get Mavic Open Pros, but they are notorious with problems with noise and eyelets, and a friend of mine had horribles problems with his rims.I will buy from bike-components, since I am located in Europe.They stock most Mavic rims, as well as the excellent - looking DT SWISS 535.
    I would not ride with narrower that 700 x 32mm tyres.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame should have clearance for 35-40mm tyres.I was thinking of Vittoria Voyager 700 x 35mm tyres, what are 400g in their folding version.I ride Audax on some quite horrible roads with endless potholes, so I want light, but durable rims.Rider weight is 200 lbs / 90 kg.
    The bike-components.de website stocks DT SWISS 535 and Mavic A719 for 20 € each.They are both identical in weight, and 622 x 19C, which means I can safely run as wide as my frame allows it.Which one should I get and why ? The 622 x 15C rims, Mavic CXP 33 and Open Pro are more than twice the price at 50 €.They are a tad lighter and I wonder if a slow guy like me can benefit from that.My average speed is 22 km/h, which is about 13 - 14 mph.I am confused...
    IMO, neither the 535 nor the A719 is optimal for either your weight or the intended use. I would opt for a rim around 480grams and would lace them 3x with 14/15 butted spokes and brass nipples. For tires I would use the Voyager Hyper not the Voyager.
    These would make a nice wheelset for Rando duty. The rims and tires you are thinking about are more suitable for loaded touring than randonneuring or Audax.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  7. #7
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    I'm really happy with the DT TK540 on my touring bike... most likely what I'd put on a cross bike too.

    That said, I think the H plus Son TB14 would look great with those hubs... Not sure how they stack up for longterm durability.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    I can highly reccomend H+Son Archetype rims - available in 36H.

    They are new wider style, well made, sturdy and build up very easily.

    In the US they can be bought in the $50-$65 range.

    H Plus Son — Archetype
    I can vouch for H+Son Archetype rims as well. Good price and great quality.

  9. #9
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    That is what I meant, the Voyager Hyper tyres.So, you say I should opt for the CXP 33s ? Do they have the quality control issues, creaking noise and eyelet problems like the Open Pro rims ? The CXP 33T weight around 470 grams.The DT SWISS are around 540 grams, this means I am saving 70 grams per rim and 140 grams per pair.Are 140 grams worth paying 3 times the price, as the DT rim is abput 3x cheaper than the CXP 33s ? If I go for a 1200 km randonee like the Paris - Brest - Paris one, or Sliven - Varna - Sofia - Sliven one, I might throw in some Continenal GP 4000 SII tyres to save weight.They are around 280 grams per tyre, and the Voyager Hyper are about 400g per tyre.

  10. #10
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    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    That is what I meant, the Voyager Hyper tyres.So, you say I should opt for the CXP 33s ? Do they have the quality control issues, creaking noise and eyelet problems like the Open Pro rims ? The CXP 33T weight around 470 grams.The DT SWISS are around 540 grams, this means I am saving 70 grams per rim and 140 grams per pair.Are 140 grams worth paying 3 times the price, as the DT rim is abput 3x cheaper than the CXP 33s ? If I go for a 1200 km randonee like the Paris - Brest - Paris one, or Sliven - Varna - Sofia - Sliven one, I might throw in some Continenal GP 4000 SII tyres to save weight.They are around 280 grams per tyre, and the Voyager Hyper are about 400g per tyre.
    If DT rims are that much less expensive on your side of the pond, I would have considered the R460. I am a firm believer on wider tires for the long rides on poor tarmac so I would stay with the 35mm Hypers. The Conti 4000S II are still only available in 25mm max and not wide enough IMO; the soon to be available 28mm may be ok but, personally, I would not use anything less than 30mm.
    My favorite setup for Rando duty on 700c wheels are the Archetype in 32h laced with 14/15 ga butted spokes and fitted with Challenge Strada Bianca open 30mm tires.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  11. #11
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    I have considered the R460 at first, but they do not come with 36 holes.The LBS mechanic owns a couple of bikes with Open Sport and Open Pro wheels, and he claims that those rims are for gentle riding, and not for pothole touring.To give you an idea why do I fear getting lighter rims like the Open Pro, take a look at the photos :

    https://s30.postimg.org/itz02oki9/Picture_075.jpg

    https://s24.postimg.org/7pihy4yr9/ma...rovi_dupki.jpg

  12. #12
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    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding

    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    I have considered the R460 at first, but they do not come with 36 holes.The LBS mechanic owns a couple of bikes with Open Sport and Open Pro wheels, and he claims that those rims are for gentle riding, and not for pothole touring.To give you an idea why do I fear getting lighter rims like the Open Pro, take a look at the photo
    ]
    The Open Pro is a lightweight rim not suitable for the 32-35 tire widths you are considering so I would not use it regardless of the number of spokes. Additionally, I don't believe combining a lightweight rim with a lot of heavier spokes cures the ills of the lightweight rims. What I have found to work best for me is to keep the rim and spoke strength proportionally relative. I don't consider the DT R460 being in the same league as the Open Pro because of its weight and width.

    Lastly, looking at your pics, I don't see anything abnormally out of the ordinary. I believe defensive riding (i.e avoid the pothole if you can and if you can't, unload your weight by standing up on the pedals prior to hitting it) will help your wheel longevity so if it's not already second nature to you, practice so it would be.

    At the end of the day you must use what you feel most comfortable with. From where I'm standing I strongly believe the R460 (or a similar weight wide rim like the Dyad) with 32 double butted 14/15ga spokes, properly laced and tensioned and fitted with 30-35mm tires will complement your Audax riding.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  13. #13
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    Those roads are waaaay better than what I ride on every day in Toronto. You have it good!

    Try avoiding, or jumping potholes, and ride "light".
    We just don’t realize the most significant moments of our lives when they’re happening
    Back then I thought “well there'll be other days”
    I didn’t realize that was the only day
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yrupye7B0

    There's sometimes a buggy.
    How many drivers does a buggy have?
    One.
    So let's just say I'm drivin' this buggy...
    and if you fix your attitude you can ride along with me.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GekiIMh4ZkM

  14. #14
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    Kinlin rims seem to be popular for cheap rims, if those are available over there.

    I've used the A23 and H+ son rims with good results on my CX bike and at 100kg lace 32f/32r on shimano hubs.

  15. #15
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    Unfortunately, Kinlin rims are not available, and it made me jealous.As for our roads being way-y-y-y better than Toronto`s roads, it sounds...well...unbelievable.When riding Audax and passing through very small villages, high in the mountains, sometime I have ridden roads as crappy as this one in the photo below.My old De ROSA Planet could only take 25mm tyres, and it was a nightmare, 5 mile downhill through gravel and asphalt leftovers.Sometimes you ride a few miles through potholes only, like this :

    https://www.novini.bg/uploads/news_p...ata-178928.jpg

    https://www.matochina.hit.bg/stylbitete.jpg

  16. #16
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    Many thans to all of you ! A little update...I found a great deal on some french rims, 622 x 19, double-wall.Mach1 210 is the model, I weighted each at 570 gramms.Paired with my old, 9-speed Campagnolo Chorus hubs with 36 holes...The front wheel was built with 2x crossing spokes, and the rear - 3x crossing.Total weight is a hefty 2, 16 kg, but the total price of the rims, spokes and labour was incredibly low -less than 60 US dollars.So, how good is that, and is 2160 grams overly heavy for Audax riding? I average at about 22 km/h at my previous wheelset on a relatively flat terrain, that was 1760 grams.I bought some Vittoria Voyager Hyper foldong tyres, 700 x 34 mm measured, and 405 grams per tyre.I will use the cross bike for Audax riding.Somet sections on nasty asphalt, like this :

    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding-bg2-10.jpg

  17. #17
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    Please, recommend some 36-hole rims for Audax riding

    We have covered the weight of the rim in post #6.

    You could do Audax on a wooden cartwheel; whether or not you would want to do that is another story.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  18. #18
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    It may depend on what else you may want to do on that bike later, like any plans for touring? If not touring than all the wheels mentioned will work great but if you decide to do some touring you may want to consider getting a wheelset now for that occasion. The strongest rim for the money is the Velocity Chukker followed by the Velocity Dyad, these have 32, 36, 40 and even 48 holes but a 48 is an overkill, but if you intend on doing any real heavy type of touring than 40 is the safest route to go, you can even mix them with 36 in the front and 40 in the rear, or if not touring go with 32 front and 36 rear.

    Then simply have it laced with DT Competition spokes and brass nipps.

  19. #19
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    Thanks ! My bike has no rack mounts / eyletts, so no loaded touring for me. Most racks for this type of bike are utterly expensive, and I do not trust them.The only touring will be Audax riding.In a few years, after serious training, I want to try the 1001 mile challenge in Italia, this is the most serious thing I want to do.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    Thanks ! My bike has no rack mounts / eyletts, so no loaded touring for me. Most racks for this type of bike are utterly expensive, and I do not trust them.The only touring will be Audax riding.In a few years, after serious training, I want to try the 1001 mile challenge in Italia, this is the most serious thing I want to do.
    A little update - I scored an incredible deal with free shipping on MACH1 210 rims, 700 x 19, so I can mount eveb MTB tyres, if I wanted to.Put together @ Chorus 36H hubs, the whole wheelset weights at 2140 grams, without skewers.I bought the rims ridiculously cheap, something like $ 15 per piece.But isn`t 2140 grams too heavy for long distance Audax, 400 km and more ?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    But isn`t 2140 grams too heavy for long distance Audax, 400 km and more ?
    No


  22. #22
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    My previous wheelset with the same ghubs was 1760 grams, roughly the weight of a Fulcrum Racing 5.And still had trouble to finish a 200 mile randonee event in 18 hours.Damn...I am slow and must HTFU...Would it be worth it to buy some lighter rims, something like to lose 300 grams from my current wheelset, but I have to pay over $ 100 for that ? If riding really long Audax ?

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fixt00l View Post
    My previous wheelset with the same ghubs was 1760 grams, roughly the weight of a Fulcrum Racing 5.And still had trouble to finish a 200 mile randonee event in 18 hours.Damn...I am slow and must HTFU...Would it be worth it to buy some lighter rims, something like to lose 300 grams from my current wheelset, but I have to pay over $ 100 for that ? If riding really long Audax ?
    Heavier rims are only a "drag" when accelerating or climbing. For long distance riding, you're pretty much riding the same pace for a really long time. The plus side, heavier wheels carry momentum better than light wheels. They also have a higher giroscopic effect making the bike more stable, slightly, but that means it's a little harder to turn the wheel because you're fighting it's torque (if I remember my freshman physics course correctly).

    Heavier wheels are also generally sturdy wheels. A light wheel won't do you any darn good if it doesn't survive the trip.

    Most of the effort you put into the ride is fighting the aerodynamic drag of you. Consider some touring style aero bar extensions.

    Here's a nice looking setup I found on google, looks to be more loaded for something like a weekend tour than an audaux/brevet.
    http://api.ning.com/files/jEeTvJLE1h...-/IMG_1365.JPG

    Wheels I had built up for myself for a similar function were in the 2300 gram range (I way 100 kg). They were a custom built set of velocity atlas wheels.
    https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/...da&oe=5521E6EB

  24. #24
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    Thank you, sir.You all are so helpful in this forum, that makes me feel somewhat guilty - I believe I owe all of you a pack of beers The setup in the photo looks excellent, but I never manage to find a handlebar, and a seatpost bag at decent prices in Europe.My Guerciotti Cross Force frame with drop bars has no rack mounts...On second thought, I dream of riding world`s toughest 1200 km brevet, the Bulgarian SVS.Quite crappy roads, 40C in daytime, cold at night, and some 14460M dénivelé...Or worse - 600 km with 11130M.Vittoria Voyager Hyper folding tyres for comfort, 32 or 35C, so this is what I wondered - isn`t 2160 too heavy for such long distances with often climbing ? Maybe fork out the cash for Campagnolo Zonda ? I very much want your expert advices.

  25. #25
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    Wheel durability trumps wheel weight every time for something of that distance, especially something that's unsupported as most audax type events are.

    If you dream of doing a crazy hard brevet I would do a few shorter ones first, see what you like and don't like for the bike setup, and go from there. You definitely don't need to get it all right the first time, you just need to finish

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