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Rear wheel fear and loathing - Need advice from experienced wheel builders

5K views 30 replies 9 participants last post by  Lombard 
#1 ·
Hello, I need some advice about my rear wheel: I am not sure if something major is wrong with it, or if it just needs to be taken to a competent shop.

I am first a commuter, I just want trouble free, low maintenance wheels. Weight, aerodynamics, etc are not a major factor.

My questions which will be repeated at the end is: Do I just need to get the wheel really trued by a compentent person or does it need to be rebuilt or replaced?

I have a 36 spoke rear wheel (14 gauge spokes) with shimano 105 hubs, velocity A23 rim. (had it for close to 5 years, was a “handspun” wheel). It has been largely trouble free except there was dent in it from hitting brick (years ago) that a shop cleaned up for me. They said it will never be perfect after that but the dent was mild, and I probably wouldn’t notice it at all.

Fast forward to a few months ago, I see the wheel is a little out of true and I go to true it. I stripped some nipples (using a old spoke wrench I got from my grandfather when he died, I need to get a 4 sided one, and will do that). I couldn’t get them out so I took it to a local bike shop (shop #1). They had to replace a few spokes for me. When I got it home the wheel was terribly out of true and round. They obviously really messed up. I don’t blame them: basically I dropped off me wheel and left, then their boss came in and told them the shop was closing tomorrow and that they were out of jobs. Then they worked on my wheel, not a recipe for greatness, all the other work this shop had done had been great up til then.

I went to fix it (I wanted to ride it the next day) and rounded more nipples with my spoke wrench (I know I need a replacement). So I took it to a shop in a near by town(shop #2), and they looked at it and said: there is a radial dent, we won’t be able to make it perfect. (this is from the brick). I had been happy with it before so I figured it would be good enough for me so I had them fix it. They replaced 3 spokes because they were too long (shop #1s work), and the wheel was perfectly true laterally, perfectly round true vertically (to my eye any way).

I was happy and I assumed I wouldn’t need to touch it again for many more years. I took 2 rides (~30 miles, paved, rouch roads, my normal commute, no major impacts) and then looked at the wheel, it was way out of true laterally and vertically and many of the spokes have little if any tension on them. So I utter some explitives and tried to fix it. Guess what: adding to the parade of incompetence I round more nipples. but I got it into a rideable state. I rode it 3 miles and looked at it and it doesn’t seem to have gotten any worse.

At this point I feel stuck, I don’t know if shop #2 just didn’t stress relieve the wheel properly after the spoke change or is some thing is really wrong with the wheel that they missed. I cannot see any cracks in the hub flange or in the rim. I also am reluctant to take it to another shop and find have a third place mess it up.

To complicate things my local shop, which I trusted is closed, the nearest bike shop is now a 45 minute drive away, and one of the seemingly nicer shops there, seemingly screwed up. (I can’t take it there and demand a free repair because I mucked with it so I could ride it to work the next day).

Do I just need to get the nipples replaced and the wheel really trued by a compentent person or does it need to be rebuilt or replaced?

If the concensus is replace the wheel then I will have many questions about best options, but we can cross that bridge later.

Thanks for any help and advice you may offer.

I do have little wheel building experience, I built my front wheel (with the culprit spoke wrench) and really enjoyed the experience. At the time I wasn't ready to tackle an asymmetrically dished wheel.
 
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#2 ·
I stopped reading 3/4 the way through. Your wheel needs re-building with a new rim, spokes and nipples (and never use that wrench again - throw it away). You need a competent wheelbuilder or you can do it yourself if you're willing to follow instructions to the letter. A first time rear wheel is no place to cut corners or rush.

Read my site 2x and you will then see I recommend downloading (and printing) Roger Musson's fine wheelbuilding e-book. You can thank me when you have 1000 miles on the wheel.
 
#7 ·
I stopped reading 3/4 the way through. Your wheel needs re-building with a new rim, spokes and nipples (and never use that wrench again - throw it away). You need a competent wheelbuilder or you can do it yourself if you're willing to follow instructions to the letter. A first time rear wheel is no place to cut corners or rush...
I'm with Mike, although I didn't stop reading 3/4 of the way through ;-) .

Between 2 bike shops, and stripping several nipples, something's going on. Replace the rim and spokes, regardless of who does it. Sounds like the original nipples might hot have had the nipples prepped or lubed, and with time they can seize. I wouldn't be surprised if that wheel couldn't be salvaged but if you were to pay a competent someone else, it would probably be cost prohibitive due to the time required. If you did the work yourself there would be little lost but time.

As a former long time commuter myself, my priorities are the same as yours; trouble free and low maintenance. I'm a BIG proponent of asymmetrical rear rims such as the Velocity A23 O/C or the DT R440 Asymmetric. Asymmetric rims build up with remarkably even left/right tension that even a novice wheelbuilder like yourself will find easy to construct. The more balanced left/right tension leads to much longer lasting wheels.

I've built tons of wheels and while asymmetric rims are not a necessity, they're an industry secret no one's sharing.
 
#3 ·
Ok, thanks. Sorry for being too verbose.

I have seen you often recommend Mavic Open Pros.

Would you recommend these with Shimano 105 over another Velocity A23?

Also Sheldon Brown speaks highly of half radial rear wheels as a good pattern, most everyone else favors 3 cross. Any opinion on half radial?

With trouble free riding in mind.
 
#4 ·
Ok, thanks. Sorry for being too verbose.

I have seen you often recommend Mavic Open Pros.

Would you recommend these with Shimano 105 over another Velocity A23?

With trouble free riding in mind.
Oh it wasn't the verbosity; I just knew all I needed to know. I have great luck with Open Pros (I have 3 sets and never a problem) but others aren't so fortunate (maybe I didn't build their wheels eh? :D ). Most rims have passed OPs in all functions as there has been no OP updating for well over a decade. I'd suggest something else - a Kinlin maybe. They're cost effective.

Look at the BikeHubStore.com rim selection.
 
#8 ·
Taking a step back:
I can get the same wheel (105,velo A23) I had before for $205.
It worked good for ~5 years. Is this a worse option than building myself or
having a local shop build (assuming I find someone with a good reputation for wheelbuilding)?
Part of me really wants to build the wheel, part of me recognizes it will take a long time: I have a baby and REALLY I enjoy these projects, I also have other "fish to fry".

I am confident that given enough time I can pull it off though if it will be a significantly better result.
 
#9 ·
#10 ·
Bikerjulio and Peter, thanks forthe heads up on OC rims.
thanks for the suggestions.

It seems I need to maximize spokes for my Goal so I like the 36H rims,
seems the Kinlin is only up to 32.

I also like going with Velocity A23 OC since it keeps with the front rim;
HOWEVER I see there are no Eyelets in it while the
However I see the DT has them. Is this a major advantage?
Mike's site talks about nipple washers, would this make up for the lack of eyelets.
 
#11 ·
How heavy are you?

It matters
 
#16 ·
i would ...

1. match the front rim with a new one for the rear.
2. measure the hub.
3. calc spoke length and order sapim race spokes from danscomp.
4. build a new rear wheel in the upside down bike frame following sheldon's wheelbuilding page.
5. use two stacks of cd jewel cases on a table to verify dish.
 
#17 ·
One more vote for the H+Son Archetype. That's what I do most of my commuting on. Great rims and easier to build good wheels with by being laterally and radially true right out of the box. At around 480 grams or so they are at an appropriate weight for a 23x25 rim to guarantee decent extrusion thickness. They also come with wear indicators which show you if the rim nears the end of its life. Laced with 36 spokes will make very sturdy wheels. Use double butted spokes like Sapim Race or preferably Force if you could find them. Also use brass nipples.
If you can swing the time, get Musson's ebook on wheel building and built them yourself. It's a skill you will be glad you get
 
#18 ·
First of all, do not work on a wheel again until you get a decent spoke wrench; even something as cheap as a Spokey would be sufficient.

In the end, you might need to do your own wheelbuild, if your local shop is as incompetent as you say. Don't worry-it's not rocket science, but you need to do it slowly and methodically.
 
#21 ·
Asymmetric rims

With bicycles, in particular, you need to separate what is merely true and what is important. The bicycle industry is saturated with products marketed on a particular merit which although it may be true it is unimportant to most.

IMO, asymmetric rims is another example of the above. Except for a few specific cases, they are not needed to build a durable wheel. The OP's wheel with its 36 spokes and 8/9/10 speed hub is not one of these cases as the hub flange offset allows adequate tension on the NDS to keep the spoke cycling within its elastic range and the 36 spokes give the wheel plenty stiffness.

Ric of Wheelfanatyc had a nice article on his blog from where the following is extracted:
Many believe unequal side to side tension made wheels less stiff and weaker. While that’s true in principle, the limits are far wider than once thought. Good evidence on this can be found in Damon Rinard’s great wheel stiffness database, now archived on the priceless Sheldon Brown site. You’ll notice that rim deflection with a 26lb (115N) side load is super tiny. Rear wheels seem just as stiff from the right as from the left. How could that be?

When you push the rear rim to the right, the left spokes oppose your motion. They have the best angle so the rim is well braced. Pushing the rim to the left calls on right side spokes. They’re not well positioned and the rim ought to be less well supported . In fact, no. Small motion of the rim makes right spokes with their steep angle increase tension quickly. These spokes are already tighter. The combination of start tension and rate of increase makes the rim feel well defended against the side push. Total strength, in case of a major crash, may be less. But for small to medium large loads, the kind we see all the time, the wheel is laterally rigid in spite of the awkward asymmetry of the spoking.


Jobst Brand also has said:
Spoke pull-out from a rim is dependent on two factors, maximum spoke tension (when wheel is unloaded) and varying spoke tension (the cyclic untensioning of spokes with each wheel rotation due to rider weight). You can't do much about the dynamic load but lowering spoke preload reduces incidence of rim cracking around spokes, something that happens around right side rear spokes more often.
Therefore, reducing dish, or spoke tension disparity from left to right is the main bonus, and it is worth doing in some of the more severe cases of asymmetric rear wheels. As long as I can get away with it, I am going to use symmetric rims........


I hope it helps
 
#22 ·
Great, thanks for the info. I really appreciate everyone's time and patience with my multiple questions.

2 more questions:
1) Any hub recommendations, I have Shimano 105, would go with it again, unless some one gives me a strong recommendations. I like the price point and they have exceeded my needs, though I would be willing to spend more if I got a strong recommendations.

2) Sheldon Brown speaks well of Radial lacing on the non drive side with 3x on the drive side. I find little about this. I assume 3x/3x is the best, but Mr Brown makes it sound like something we should all me doing. Any experience with this?
 
#23 ·
Any hub recommendations, I have Shimano 105, would go with it again, unless some one gives me a strong recommendations. I like the price point and they have exceeded my needs, though I would be willing to spend more if I got a strong recommendations.
There isn't much anywhere close to their price except for the hubs sold by the likes of BikeHubStore.com -

SL210 Superlight Rear Road Hub - 210 grams

They're excellent hubs, with cartridge bearings and they are easily serviced.

Sheldon Brown speaks well of Radial lacing on the non drive side with 3x on the drive side. I find little about this. I assume 3x/3x is the best, but Mr Brown makes it sound like something we should all me doing. Any experience with this?
Sheldon can say all he likes but radial NDS is a rare bird indeed. Almost no-one does it. It hardly ever gets a mention around here. I did it on one set of wheels years ago and it was the only set where a NDS nipple unscrewed on me. With flange spacing, NDS spoke tension is very low relative to DS tension and without the side loading on spoke threads from crossed spokes, it's easier for a nipple to loosen. I refuse to gum up the threads with some thread locking goop or use self-locking nipples.

3x both sides is by far the most common but I've done them 3x/2x, 2x/2x and my latest ones are 2x/1x (all on 28 spoke wheels with radial on the front) - done just as an experiment. So far so good.

With 105 hubs you'll be limited to 32 or 36h and 3x both sides will be the best choice.
 
#24 ·
Hub: The Shimano 105 is an excellent hub for commuting. Properly maintained will last for a long time. Personally I prefer the Ultegra 6800 over it because it's much easier to service and set the preload. Probably the next generation 105 may have this tickled down to it.

Lacing pattern: I can't think of one good reason to lace a 36 spoke wheel and small flange hub with anything else than x3/x3.
 
#29 ·
All good info here. Let me link here to a thread I dredged about two weeks ago that may shed more light on the asym vs. sym wheels and why it may be advantageous for some wheels, but not for others. Read this from my dredge on to the end:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/anyone-build-dt-swiss-r460-348419.html

You may also want to read this excellent review on rims:

Alloy Rim Roundup - Fairwheel Bikes Blog

As far as hubs, I think the new Ultegra 6800 hubs are your best bang for the buck. Not much more $ than 105 5800s and the Ultegras have the "digital preload" which means over tightening your quick release will not make the load on your bearings too tight.

And if you decide to build yourself, please, please, please, get a good spoke wrench before you touch one more nipple!!! I have a few spoke wrenches and my favorite is this one:

P&K Lie Spoke Wrench - Wheel Fanatyk

As Mike T. said, read his site a few times. There is lots of good info here. Then get Roger Musson's ebook and read that a few times.
 
#30 · (Edited)
I really appreciate everyone's advise. I wanted to come back around and update anyone interested on my progress.

I went with H Plus Son Archetype, Shimano 105, Sapim Race on the drive side and
Sapim D-Light on the non-drive side (There are a lot of opinions for an against thinner spokes on the NDS, that is what I did, maybe just to be different)

I got it laced and tensioned a few days ago, I used the Right to Left building method described at:
Wheel Building Tip No. 6 - Build Rears from Right to Left - Wheel Fanatyk

I went really well, I enjoyed using that method, smooth as silk.

I was a little nervous I may have overtensioned the Drive side (it just felt really stiff compared to my other wheels which have 2mm, not 1.8 mm spokes) so I took it to a shop that had tensiometer, the said the drive side was around 90 kg and felt it was spot on (90 seems low to me, but it feels really tight). The wheel is pretty true, I need to dish and do a final true, but I wanted to square away the tension issue before I ruined the rim while dishing. It will be a while before I can do those things due to my work schedule and a family trip coming up.

Obviously the real test is if the wheel can be ridden for a few hundred miles and stay true, so I will report back on my experience in the near long term. However I did want to come back around with an update in case any of the kind people who helped me with advise wanted to know.

By the way every online retailer in the english world is sold out of
the PKLie Spoke wrench when I was looking, but
you can order direct from PKLie if you have paypal account,
that is what I did, and with shipping was only $2-3 more than the list price
from the out of stock folks.

Below is a picture of the wheel and my chief of quality control.



Bicycle tire Bicycle wheel rim Bicycle wheel Rim Spoke
Bicycle tire Bicycle wheel rim Human Child Baby & toddler clothing
 
#31 ·
I really appreciate everyone's advise. I wanted to come back around and update anyone interested on my progress.

I went with H Plus Son Archetype, Shimano 105, Sapim Race on the drive side and
Sapim D-Light on the non-drive side (There are a lot of opinions for an against thinner spokes on the NDS, that is what I did, maybe just to be different)

I got it laced and tensioned a few days ago, I used the Right to Left building method described at:
Wheel Building Tip No. 6 - Build Rears from Right to Left - Wheel Fanatyk

I went really well, I enjoyed using that method, smooth as silk.

I was a little nervous I may have overtensioned the Drive side (it just felt really stiff compared to my other wheels which have 2mm, not 1.8 mm spokes) so I took it to a shop that had tensiometer, the said the drive side was around 90 kg and felt it was spot on (90 seems low to me, but it feels really tight). The wheel is pretty true, I need to dish and do a final true, but I wanted to square away the tension issue before I ruined the rim while dishing. It will be a while before I can do those things due to my work schedule and a family trip coming up.

Obviously the real test is if the wheel can be ridden for a few hundred miles and stay true, so I will report back on my experience in the near long term. However I did want to come back around with an update in case any of the kind people who helped me with advise wanted to know.

By the way every online retailer in the english world is sold out of
the PKLie Spoke wrench when I was looking, but
you can order direct from PKLie if you have paypal account,
that is what I did, and with shipping was only $2-3 more than the list price
from the out of stock folks.

Below is a picture of the wheel and my chief of quality control.



View attachment 316569 View attachment 316570


90kgf on the DS will not give you enough NDS tension - at least if that tensiometer is accurate. Others here may disagree with me, but I am a believer of the right tools for the job. You may want to invest in one of those tensiometers. If you buy yours from your shop, I'm sure they will let you compare readings between yours and theirs. That should give you some guideline of accuracy.

You want your DS tensions to be around 130kgf. On an 11 speed freehub, this will give you adequate 55kgf NDS tensions. On an 8-9-10 speed freehb, this will give you more than adequate 70kgf NDS tensions.
 
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