Rim and spoke suggestions for first build...
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  1. #1
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    Rim and spoke suggestions for first build...

    My old 15 years+ reliable training wheels were on their way out last year and would need new spokes and nipples, so I figure now is a good time to finally build my first wheel set.

    I have a Dura Ace 7800 36H rear hub and a dura ace 32H front hub I always wanted build up some wheels but never had time to. I doter my own wheels now and have a truing stand. I also have some 28/24 hubs, but think I am better off with the dura ace 36/32 combo my first time out.

    I used to to be a 200lb rider, now Im about 250lb and hope to get back to 200lb this summer. I have a Specialized Tarmac with rim brakes that is a faster bike than I deserve but fits me well and has been very reliable. I suspect my widest tire is 27mm or 32mm, but not sure. I usually ride 25mm, but will probably be going wider when I get new tires.

    I used to enjoy fast group rides, but suspect this summer will be long 3hr+ rides on back roads closer to home. No racing or time trialing. Roads are in OK condition, but more chip seal and road noise than I'd like.

    I was just wondering if anyone could recommend rims and spokes for my first wheel set. I would like black rims and spokes, but would be ok with something else if it was reliable.

    Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated for someone that has lost touch with what wheels people are riding now...

  2. #2
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    I'm a big fan or H Plus Son archetype rims. Although I've beat the heck out of several sets includeing a pair with only 20/24 spokes and they take it without problems, I weight 100 less than you so take it with a grain of salt.

    Also, I know they make a 32h but not sure about 36.

  3. #3
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    They make 32 and 36. Great rim for the money.

    https://www.bikehubstore.com/H-Plus-.../archetype.htm

  4. #4
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    Agreed, I built a set of wheels for my wife last year using Archetypes with 32h Ultegra Hubs and Sapim Race spokes. They were very easy to build up.
    I know some will always say to measure ERD yourself.....but I've always found Brandon's published ERD's to be spot on and they were for the Archetypes too.
    Only problem is that the 36 hole is on back order.

  5. #5
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    Maybe Ill make the front wheel first, no dish to deal with.

    What spokes and nipples do you guys recommend?

  6. #6
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    I usually build wheels with Sapim CXray but the Sapim Race is about 1/3 the cost. I always use Brass Nipples instead of Aluminum. Brass is much more forgiving and, where I live on the FL Gulf Coast, more resistant to Salt corrosion.

  7. #7
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    I re-built my first wheels with sapin race, then I redid it a year later with DTSwiss. It was probably me though, the DTSwiss are still running.
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  8. #8
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    Hi Spepic!

    So you're about to build your first wheel set! First off, if you haven't yet, buy Roger Musson's ebook "Professional Guide to Wheelbuilding". It is the best $12 you will ever spend and it comes with lifetime updates. Follow his directions to the letter.

    Personally, I would use DT Swiss spokes and nipples, not Sapim. I hear more stories of Sapim spokes failing than DT Swiss. In the grand scheme of things, both are rare, but just saying. For your first build, resist the temptation to go with super thin spokes which will twist more when making tension adjustments. DT Swiss Champions are the easiest to work with. If you want a butted spoke, DT Competitions are pretty workable too. DT Revolutions are very difficult for a first time builder. Bladed spokes have the advantage that you can see right away if you are twisting - DT Aero Comps are a good choice for bladed spokes. Avoid DT Aero Lites as they will be a challenge.

    I recommend brass nipples over alloy. The tiny bit of weight you save with alloy nipples is not worth the trade-off. Brass nipples are far less prone to corrosion.

    The H+ Son Archetypes others here mention are great rims. However, just to be clear that if you get black rims, the black is on the brake tracks as well. So they will look crappy for the first 500 miles or so until the brake track is worn through to the bare metal. If you are getting the polished silver, this issue is irrelevant. Another thing to mention about these rims is that the brake tracks are a little narrower than most road rims.

    I recommend either HED Belgium C2 or DT Swiss R460 rims. If you are flush, go with the HED Belgium C2's. If you want a great bang for the buck, go with the DT Swiss R460's.

    ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS do your own measurements! NEVER rely on published rim ERD's. I have found published ERD's to be wrong more than once! That is a mistake you don't want to find out the hard way!!!
    Last edited by Lombard; 04-24-2020 at 06:30 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by spepic View Post
    My old 15 years+ reliable training wheels were on their way out last year and would need new spokes and nipples, so I figure now is a good time to finally build my first wheel set.

    I have a Dura Ace 7800 36H rear hub and a dura ace 32H front hub I always wanted build up some wheels but never had time to. I doter my own wheels now and have a truing stand. I also have some 28/24 hubs, but think I am better off with the dura ace 36/32 combo my first time out.

    I used to to be a 200lb rider, now Im about 250lb and hope to get back to 200lb this summer. I have a Specialized Tarmac with rim brakes that is a faster bike than I deserve but fits me well and has been very reliable. I suspect my widest tire is 27mm or 32mm, but not sure. I usually ride 25mm, but will probably be going wider when I get new tires.

    I used to enjoy fast group rides, but suspect this summer will be long 3hr+ rides on back roads closer to home. No racing or time trialing. Roads are in OK condition, but more chip seal and road noise than I'd like.

    I was just wondering if anyone could recommend rims and spokes for my first wheel set. I would like black rims and spokes, but would be ok with something else if it was reliable.

    Any hints or suggestions would be appreciated for someone that has lost touch with what wheels people are riding now...
    Velocity A23 rims build a good wheel, and you can get an off-center to build a stronger rear wheel. My set now have close to 40K miles on them.

  10. #10
    changingleaf
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    I agree that the DT Swiss R 460 is a very good economy rim. All the other rim choices are good as well.

    I agree, thicker spokes, less twist, easier build. Either butted 14/15g spokes like Sapim Race or DT Competition or straight 14g spokes like Sapim Leader or DT Champion. If you have a bladed spoke holder the bladed spokes are the easiest to fine-true with, but more expensive.

    I personally find brass nipples harder to turn than aluminum given the same lube, but with aluminum if the spokes do not extend into the head of the nipple you may end up with broken nipples after a couple years. DT Swiss brass nipples are easier to turn than Sapim Brass nipples. Use some heavy oil or grease on the threads and spoke holes.

  11. #11
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    I built a set of wheels with the DT R460's. Nice rims, great price, but they don't have bead retention humps in the rim bed, so they are not that good for tubeless use.

  12. #12
    pmf
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    I agree that the DT Swiss R 460 is a very good economy rim. All the other rim choices are good as well.

    I agree, thicker spokes, less twist, easier build. Either butted 14/15g spokes like Sapim Race or DT Competition or straight 14g spokes like Sapim Leader or DT Champion. If you have a bladed spoke holder the bladed spokes are the easiest to fine-true with, but more expensive.

    I personally find brass nipples harder to turn than aluminum given the same lube, but with aluminum if the spokes do not extend into the head of the nipple you may end up with broken nipples after a couple years. DT Swiss brass nipples are easier to turn than Sapim Brass nipples. Use some heavy oil or grease on the threads and spoke holes.
    Do wheel builders still use Spoke Prep? I was into building wheels years ago and used it. Now I just pay someone else to do a better job than I can. I like HED Belgium rims, cxray spokes and White Industries hubs.

    If you are not planning to do the tubeless thing, save yourself a lot of grief and don't buy tubeless rims. They can be really difficult to fix a flat.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    I built a set of wheels with the DT R460's. Nice rims, great price, but they don't have bead retention humps in the rim bed, so they are not that good for tubeless use.
    You must be thinking of some other rim model. R460's have the hump.

    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Do wheel builders still use Spoke Prep? I was into building wheels years ago and used it.
    I dip the spoke threads in machine oil and I believe that is what most wheel builders do. No specific spoke prep.
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    Last edited by Lombard; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:21 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by changingleaf View Post
    I personally find brass nipples harder to turn than aluminum given the same lube... DT Swiss brass nipples are easier to turn than Sapim Brass nipples. Use some heavy oil or grease on the threads and spoke holes.
    So true. Sapim makes "hardcoat" black brass nipples now that are easier to turn, but their normal black brass nipples are sticky. The best were Wheelsmith plated brass but they quit making them. Too bad.

  15. #15
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    Rim and spoke suggestions for first build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    You must be thinking of some other rim model. R460's have the hump.
    Mine don't have them.

    Further, do you see them in this cross section? https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=69439

    I think you are confusing the rim hooks with the bead retention humps in the rim bed. See this cross section of a Mavic UST rim.
    Last edited by mfdemicco; 4 Weeks Ago at 03:05 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mfdemicco View Post
    Mine don't have them.

    Further, do you see them in this cross section? https://www.universalcycles.com/shop...s.php?id=69439

    I think you are confusing the rim hooks with the bead retention humps in the rim bed. See this cross section of a Mavic UST rim.
    I must be missing something, but the profile of both of those look the same. And the R460 is described as tubeless ready.
    "If someone needs 200 rolls of toilet paper for a 14-day quarantine, they probably should have made a doctor's appointment way before the COVID-19 outbreak." -- Unknown

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.




  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    I must be missing something, but the profile of both of those look the same. And the R460 is described as tubeless ready.
    If you look at the "flat" out bound of the center gutter of both rims you'll see the hump at the edge of the gutter on the Mavic rim whereas the flat of the R460 is flat without the hump.
    Too old to ride plastic

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by velodog View Post
    If you look at the "flat" out bound of the center gutter of both rims you'll see the hump at the edge of the gutter on the Mavic rim whereas the flat of the R460 is flat without the hump.
    Ahhh, got it, OK.
    "If someone needs 200 rolls of toilet paper for a 14-day quarantine, they probably should have made a doctor's appointment way before the COVID-19 outbreak." -- Unknown

    "With
    bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important."
    -- DCGriz, RBR.




  19. #19
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    Those "humps" are useful in that they keep the tire beads against the sidewalls of the rim when the tire is deflated; otherwise the beads can pop back into the rim well, and will be hard (maybe not possible) to reinflate the tire after you plug it out on the road, or maybe enable you to ride out a sudden flat without crashing.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmf View Post
    Do wheel builders still use Spoke Prep? I was into building wheels years ago and used it. Now I just pay someone else to do a better job than I can. I like HED Belgium rims, cxray spokes and White Industries hubs.

    If you are not planning to do the tubeless thing, save yourself a lot of grief and don't buy tubeless rims. They can be really difficult to fix a flat.
    I used spoke prep for awhile and did not like it. It is hard to apply it evenly, some spokes get a thicker coating making it hard to turn the nipple. Other spokes get a thin coating and the nipple spins easily. Also you have to wait for it to dry after applying.
    A tip I got from a wheel builder is to use Tef-Gel. It provides lubrication and prevents corrosion. It is a little messy to work with but I prefer it to anything else. For spokes DT Competition DB. Don't waste your time with straight gauge. I don't mind using aluminum nipples except on the rear drive side use brass.

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