Roval Tubeless frustration!
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  1. #1
    MCJ
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    Roval Tubeless frustration!

    I posted this on the specialized forum as well but wanted to see if anyone had a solution to a problem with the Roval tubeless wheelsets. The problem arises when you deflate the tires the bead comes completely off the hook and falls down, making it very difficult to reinflate. I've been doing tubeless about as long as its been available on the mtb and have lots of experience with mtb and cross tires. They are usually locked onto the hook, so much so that you have to use force to remove the tires. Why are Roval wheels so different? No bead shelf? I just about abandoned road tubeless over the weekend when all I did was add sealant through the valve to top it off. Had to fire up the compressor to get it seat again and then be very agile in putting the valve stem back in. Not easy. Is this just the way it is with road tubeless or is it a design flaw of the Roval wheels?

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    Road tubeless sucks so get used to it or use tubes.

  3. #3
    jpz
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    With road tubeless, not unlike MTB tubeless, different combinations work differently.
    I have work in a shop, have a gravel bike, mtb, & 2 road bikes ALL tubeless. With Rovals, wider Specialized tires(turbos, 26 OR 28mm work good as do Schwalbes) , one difference, 'older' Rovals used spoke hole plugs, newer w/ rim strips are easier.
    I run Campy rims, no spoke holes, little narrower, I can pump most tubeless with a floor pump.
    I've put Spec turbos on Zipps, set uo easy, but you will have a ell of a time removing the tire.
    I'm an older rider, 64, I do 5000mi a year, long rides, fast rides, 22mph plus, ez rides, I see NO advantage in Tubes. . . But again, it depends on what works with your wheels.

    With

  4. #4
    'brifter' is f'ing stupid
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpz View Post
    With road tubeless, not unlike MTB tubeless, different combinations work differently.
    I have work in a shop, have a gravel bike, mtb, & 2 road bikes ALL tubeless. With Rovals, wider Specialized tires(turbos, 26 OR 28mm work good as do Schwalbes) , one difference, 'older' Rovals used spoke hole plugs, newer w/ rim strips are easier.
    I run Campy rims, no spoke holes, little narrower, I can pump most tubeless with a floor pump.
    I've put Spec turbos on Zipps, set uo easy, but you will have a ell of a time removing the tire.
    I'm an older rider, 64, I do 5000mi a year, long rides, fast rides, 22mph plus, ez rides, I see NO advantage in Tubes. . . But again, it depends on what works with your wheels.

    With
    No advantages?

    No mess.
    Better ride quality.
    Generally lighter weight.
    Easier install/removal.

    Let's hear your side of the story since opinions matter. Just so you know I think mtb tubeless is the ONLY way to go. Road...nope.
    #promechaniclife

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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    No advantages?

    No mess.
    Better ride quality.
    Generally lighter weight.
    Easier install/removal.

    Let's hear your side of the story since opinions matter. Just so you know I think mtb tubeless is the ONLY way to go. Road...nope.
    I'm going to challenge the lower weight and better ride. Weight is a coin toss even with sealant when you look at the total package. Ride depends on tire size, design, and pressure - I know you run your pressure's low on road tubes but most won't take the risk for fear of pinch flats and they are willing to run lower on tubeless which for most people makes them ride better. The advantage of tubeless is less flats. Knock on wood, I've never had a flat on a road tubeless set up that the sealant didn't fix.
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  6. #6
    jpz
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    ride is better, I've ridden tubulars & tube, tubeless is better.
    for me less than a flat a year (used to avg a flat every ~2k miles)
    Flat changes on road (using tube) are as quick as before)
    I've gotten home with glass in the tire sealant on bike. . .I got home. . .
    cleaned bike, remove glass, maybe add sealant, ride next day, no tube change on road side.
    Again, your combination of tire/ rim can affect your experience.

  7. #7
    tlg
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    5 years road tubeless, I've never had any mess. Never a flat. Guess I'm lucky.

    Ride quality is = or superior. Hands down. I'm running lower pressure and never pinch flat.

    Weight is irrelevant. Modern tubeless tires are on par with a tubed tire.
    GP5000 25mm (225g) + tube (90g) = 315g
    GP5000TL 25mm (295g) + 1oz sealant (30g) = 325g

    Installing new tubeless tires can be tough. But once installed, I've never had any issue getting them off and on again.

    A couple weeks ago I was riding a different set of wheels that I still have tubes tires. Hit a pothole and flatted. F#%k tubes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jpz View Post
    ride is better, I've ridden tubulars & tube, tubeless is better.
    for me less than a flat a year (used to avg a flat every ~2k miles)
    Flat changes on road (using tube) are as quick as before)
    I've gotten home with glass in the tire sealant on bike. . .I got home. . .
    cleaned bike, remove glass, maybe add sealant, ride next day, no tube change on road side.
    Again, your combination of tire/ rim can affect your experience.
    ugh nope, and like you said, this depends on tire/rim combo (and in the tubeless world, this combo has no standard). The general rule of thumb is, if a tire/rim combo is tight (ie, easy to pump with floor pump), then removing it on the road and putting in a tube is a BIATCH because it's so tight. But if a tire/rim combo is loose, then seating the tire is a BIATCH (sometimes impossible) but putting a tube will be easier on the road.

    the real issue in road tubeless is that there is no hard standard for tires and rims, so it can be a guessing game.

  9. #9
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    I've never been one to over inflate tires to avoid pinch flats. I run the pressure that feels comfortable to me and enjoy the ride quality the 99.999% of the time I'm not pinch flatting. I'll never understand why people inflate their tires to what I think is higher than optimal pressure all the time to avoid what is maybe a once or twice a year flat. For this reason I don't notice any difference in ride quality. As tire sizes have gone up the chance of pinching is reduced. If you want to avoid most pinch flats keep your eyes open, that helps a lot. In reality most people probably ride the same roads most of the time. You should know what to expect in the way of road damage, railroad tracks, etc.

    It only took one sliced TL tire and the resultant mess/hassle for me to go back. I'm not a rider that flats very often so it was an easy choice.
    #promechaniclife

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    and I think all this talk about tubeless having better feel, better handling, better control, better grip, better cornering, blah blah, is just a purely placebo effect! It's like those bicycle magizines that review a new products, it's always better, better, better. lol

    I've ridden dirt bikes (motorcycle) with tubes, ATVs with tubes, my Vespa scooter uses tubes, my dirtjumper still run tubes, my 26er downhill of the past ran tubes, and now my 27.5 hartail mtb once again is running tubes (latex) because I coun't get the new tires to seal. And guess what folks, I still ride them like that after all these years, I still ride hard on the trails and on the street. I know a sh8t.. i mean a SH8TLOAD.. of guys running tubeless on both on both dirt and road and they'd be raving about tubeless this and tubeless that.. until I show 'em how to rip uphill and downhill, in loose, bumpy, flowy berms, etc... all using inner tubes!

    I must admit, when I couldn't get the damn tubeless tires to seat on my 27.5 hardtail, I was a little bummed out because I had to put in some (26" mtb latex) tubes that I thought I would never use again (unless in emergency)... but to my damn surprise.. the bike ride so nice.. so nice that I may considering going back to non-tubeless mtb tires (they're lighter than tubeless ones, and less expensive too) and latex.

  11. #11
    tlg
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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    I've ridden dirt bikes (motorcycle) with tubes, ATVs with tubes, my Vespa scooter uses tubes, my dirtjumper still run tubes, my 26er downhill of the past ran tubes, and
    And... they all have... suspensions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    I've ridden dirt bikes (motorcycle) with tubes, ATVs with tubes, my Vespa scooter uses tubes, my dirtjumper still run tubes, my 26er downhill of the past ran tubes, and now my 27.5 hartail mtb once again is running tubes (latex) because I coun't get the new tires to seal. And guess what folks, I still ride them like that after all these years, I still ride hard on the trails and on the street. I know a sh8t.. i mean a SH8TLOAD.. of guys running tubeless on both on both dirt and road and they'd be raving about tubeless this and tubeless that.. until I show 'em how to rip uphill and downhill, in loose, bumpy, flowy berms, etc... all using inner tubes!
    Yeah, exactly. When I was roadracing my ZX7 Kawasaki with WERA I found tubes really made me go faster and it road better. The ride on both my Camaros improved, they handle better with tubes and my truck pulls our boat much better with tubes too. Even our boat trailer pulls easier with tubes...... Tubeless sucks!
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    Experiences vary widely, but for me, I have always seen tubeless as a solution to problems that don't exist in reality. As CX has said repetitively and I will paraphrase, pinch flats are extremely rare as long as you keep your eyes open. I probably get one flat or less per year and when I do, it's usually a wire, not a pinch flat. Not to mention that I have seen a rider get "pinch flats" or should I say "slash flats" on his tubeless tires after hitting a pothole with both tires. That was an Uber ride for him. I hit the same hole (unavoidable because of traffic) with my tubed tires. And guess what? No flats!

    Nope, no tubeless for me. Nor am I convinced to even try it on the mountain bike since the only flat I have EVER had on the mountain bike was a failed valve stem. Granted I don't do the really rough stuff other than some rocks and tree roots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Experiences vary widely, but for me, I have always seen tubeless as a solution to problems that don't exist in reality. As CX has said repetitively and I will paraphrase, pinch flats are extremely rare as long as you keep your eyes open. I probably get one flat or less per year and when I do, it's usually a wire, not a pinch flat. Not to mention that I have seen a rider get "pinch flats" or should I say "slash flats" on his tubeless tires after hitting a pothole with both tires. That was an Uber ride for him. I hit the same hole (unavoidable because of traffic) with my tubed tires. And guess what? No flats!

    Nope, no tubeless for me. Nor am I convinced to even try it on the mountain bike since the only flat I have EVER had on the mountain bike was a failed valve stem. Granted I don't do the really rough stuff other than some rocks and tree roots.
    i've had like... 1 ... flat in mtb in an entire decade of using tubes! But I've seen more cracked rims, cracked frames, bent wheels... than I have ever seen flats on dirt!

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    Quote Originally Posted by tlg View Post
    And... they all have... suspensions.
    bah! my hardtail now runs tubes (latex). Can't tell a damn difference! It feels great outclimbing guys on CX bikes on probably tubeless!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Srode View Post
    Yeah, exactly. When I was roadracing my ZX7 Kawasaki with WERA I found tubes really made me go faster and it road better. The ride on both my Camaros improved, they handle better with tubes and my truck pulls our boat much better with tubes too. Even our boat trailer pulls easier with tubes...... Tubeless sucks!
    You're comparing apples to...not even oranges, more like grapes. The one really important difference is that car/moto tires don't use a sealant. The casings are much much thicker as are the treads.
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    speaking of sealant, the Stans one always tend to leave a bigass 8-10" monster sticking on a section of a tire if you don't ride it everyday, like my mtb. The Orange sealant doesn't tend to do this (or does it a lot lesser) but then again the Orange sealant does lay down a significant layer of latex covering an entire tire (the thickness of this latex layer is just a little thinner than an actual latex inner tube itself!). And as you refill the sealant over time, the latex depository and/or Stans monster will only grow thicker, thus they are effectively now inner tubes. yep.

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    Not my intention to derail this thread but it's kind of on its own now anyway. So I recently took possession of a bike tubeless ready including (40 mm) tubeless tires but I am running tubes as I have no immediate plan for tubeless. After mounting the tires I had to run the PSIs into the 80s to get the entire tire bead onto the shelf. I thought that seemed like a lot but this setup is new to me. Having been in this game for a few decades and been through a lot of tires and rims over the years I have seen a lot of variation. So I am asking this just out of curiosity; what PSI do folks see to get their beads seated on tubeless setups?
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    Quote Originally Posted by craiger_ny View Post
    Not my intention to derail this thread but it's kind of on its own now anyway. So I recently took possession of a bike tubeless ready including (40 mm) tubeless tires but I am running tubes as I have no immediate plan for tubeless. After mounting the tires I had to run the PSIs into the 80s to get the entire tire bead onto the shelf. I thought that seemed like a lot but this setup is new to me. Having been in this game for a few decades and been through a lot of tires and rims over the years I have seen a lot of variation. So I am asking this just out of curiosity; what PSI do folks see to get their beads seated on tubeless setups?
    It varies hugely. I've had some tire/rim combos seat at as low as 25-30, some take more than 60-70. Some just quietly creep onto the seat, some snap loudly as they pop over the ledge. Bontrager tires and rim strips are generally noisy. Seems like Santa Cruz Reserve rims and Maxxis tires are more quiet. It varies w/ each set up.
    #promechaniclife

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    Quote Originally Posted by craiger_ny View Post
    Not my intention to derail this thread but it's kind of on its own now anyway. So I recently took possession of a bike tubeless ready including (40 mm) tubeless tires but I am running tubes as I have no immediate plan for tubeless. After mounting the tires I had to run the PSIs into the 80s to get the entire tire bead onto the shelf. I thought that seemed like a lot but this setup is new to me. Having been in this game for a few decades and been through a lot of tires and rims over the years I have seen a lot of variation. So I am asking this just out of curiosity; what PSI do folks see to get their beads seated on tubeless setups?
    my 2.3 maxxis and Sram Rise 60 rims (which is the hookless type) takes 60 psi (the limit PSI of the tire!) to seat the bead. Hookless rims take a lot more PSI to seat the bead the non-hookless rims, it seems. And even at 60 PSI, the bead didn't just snap into place immediately, I had to bounce the wheel around to cajole the rest of the tire to seat. And oh boy, once seated, removing the tire from the rim is even a bigger biatch to deal with!

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    Quote Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
    And oh boy, once seated, removing the tire from the rim is even a bigger biatch to deal with!
    Damn near impossible on some rim/tire combos. Try some WTB KOM rims mated with WTB Byway tires. The beads mate with the bead seats so well, I needed a tire jack to separate those. Doesn't matter that I was running tubes, these were impossible. No way I was going out on these without carrying the tire jack because if I got a flat, it could be a long walk. I switched to some Panaracer Gravel Kings which were easier. The Byways have been sitting dormant in my basement for some time.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cxwrench View Post
    You're comparing apples to...not even oranges, more like grapes. The one really important difference is that car/moto tires don't use a sealant. The casings are much much thicker as are the treads.
    Take my comments on the context of the quote I posted where Aclinjury was implying his tube set up made him faster than tubeless and it's a good analogy - tubes aren't going to make anyone faster or a bike have better handling by themselves.

    I agree people make some dumb claims about the benefit of tubeless tires on roadbikes however ride quality on road bikes and less flats at the pressures people are willing to run them - tubeless wins IMHO (knowing we differ on our opinions).

    Off topic a little - I've seen lots of people who think tubes are great the last 4 years at DK200 on the side of the trail fixing flats in the first 20 miles of the race.... on their Gravel / CX bikes not tubeless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lombard View Post
    Damn near impossible on some rim/tire combos. Try some WTB KOM rims mated with WTB Byway tires. The beads mate with the bead seats so well, I needed a tire jack to separate those. Doesn't matter that I was running tubes, these were impossible. No way I was going out on these without carrying the tire jack because if I got a flat, it could be a long walk. I switched to some Panaracer Gravel Kings which were easier. The Byways have been sitting dormant in my basement for some time.
    bingo. that's problem, there's no standard for tire/rim tolerance, so this in reality limits your choices of tires. My Maxxis Ikon 2.2 fit great on the Sram Rise 60, but Maxxis discontinued this series when I sent to buy some,.. so I found some Onza Canis tubeless on sales for cheap on Chainreactions. Reviews on the Onza Canis seemed great and all, many reviewers in the UK were saying they had no issue mounting tubeless, but then when I tried it on my Sram Rise wheels it was impossible to seat, I used the air pump at a gas station, brought it to 2 LBS to have them tried, no luck seating. Finally decided to put some 26" latex tubes and rode it like that. Wow! I don't even notice a damn difference in term of ride quality, control, handling, etc.. This makes me think why shouldn't I go back to using nontubeless tires since they're lighter and cheaper than their tubeless counterparts.

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    It's a long time since I posted here, but I follow forums in other countries & languages, and I noticed something.

    - problems with caliper brakes? Zero on aluminum rims, a few on carbon rims.
    - problems with disc brakens? It happens, but it's relatively rare.
    - problems with Di2 etc.? It happens, but not often.
    - problems with going tubeless on racebikes? Ah, there's something else. Basically, the most mentioned problem. Frustrations everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HFroller View Post
    It's a long time since I posted here, but I follow forums in other countries & languages, and I noticed something.

    - problems with caliper brakes? Zero on aluminum rims, a few on carbon rims.
    - problems with disc brakens? It happens, but it's relatively rare.
    - problems with Di2 etc.? It happens, but not often.
    - problems with going tubeless on racebikes? Ah, there's something else. Basically, the most mentioned problem. Frustrations everywhere.
    well in Asia, road tubeless hasn't been really embraced

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