Wheel build help
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  1. #1
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    Wheel build help

    Hi,

    Ive been thinking of building a set of wheels to learn the process. I was thinking of using 50mm 2.5/3mm Chinese UD carbon rims. Sapim CX-Ray spokes, Sapim nipple (which one?) with Tune MIG70 and 170 Hubs. I was thinking front wheel 18h radial and rear 32h.

    I also need to buy tools and was thinking PT TS2, PT Dial kit, PT Spoke key (which one?), PT dishing tool and the Sapim spoke tension meter.

    Any comments and suggestions welcomed.

    -Thanks

    P.S. Im in Europe so it might be easier/cheaper to get items made over here.

  2. #2
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    Either your front wheel will be wildly under built or your rear will be wildly overbuilt - 18/24 would be appropriate if you are light, 24/28 would be plenty up to as heavy as you should be riding carbon clinchers.

    Tunes are challenging hubs to build on. The front flanges are not clocked together, which could easily throw a novice wheel builder for a loop. They also specify a max tension of 110kgf, which is pretty shy for a drive side rear (more spokes makes that less of an issue). For a first set I'd get a cheaper and stouter set of hubs - an OEM hub like Novatec F482SB rear and A291 front would be a saner choice for your first go.

    CX Rays are expensive but easy to build with - that's why so many wheel builders like them, since you get paid more and your life gets easier. By the way I'm totally serious on that one - for the vast majority of people they serve zero benefit.

    You don't need the dials, don't bother. You need the black Park spoke tool. A lot of people don't bother with a dish tool and just flip the wheel to check dish (I do that). The Sapim tension meter is expensive but excellent, although worthless if you don't keep it calibrated and understand how to use it.

  3. #3
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    Hello,

    Im around 80kilos and the tires will be tubulars what would you suggest as a lacing pattern?

    -Thanks

    P.S. Would you suggest DT Spokes and DT tension meter instead?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    Either your front wheel will be wildly under built or your rear will be wildly overbuilt - 18/24 would be appropriate if you are light, 24/28 would be plenty up to as heavy as you should be riding carbon clinchers.

    Tunes are challenging hubs to build on. The front flanges are not clocked together, which could easily throw a novice wheel builder for a loop. They also specify a max tension of 110kgf, which is pretty shy for a drive side rear (more spokes makes that less of an issue). For a first set I'd get a cheaper and stouter set of hubs - an OEM hub like Novatec F482SB rear and A291 front would be a saner choice for your first go.

    CX Rays are expensive but easy to build with - that's why so many wheel builders like them, since you get paid more and your life gets easier. By the way I'm totally serious on that one - for the vast majority of people they serve zero benefit.

    You don't need the dials, don't bother. You need the black Park spoke tool. A lot of people don't bother with a dish tool and just flip the wheel to check dish (I do that). The Sapim tension meter is expensive but excellent, although worthless if you don't keep it calibrated and understand how to use it.
    What he said!
    Hubs wise since you are in Europe Miche may be a no brainer. The price is right and the hub is good.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabriciom View Post
    Hello,

    Im around 80kilos and the tires will be tubulars what would you suggest as a lacing pattern?

    -Thanks

    P.S. Would you suggest DT Spokes and DT tension meter instead?
    DT spokes are good but I don't think they're much different from Sapims. We use the Sapim tension meter - what I said applies to any good tension meter.

    At 80kg I'd say 18/24 or 20/24 is perfect. Radial front at around 95kgf (respect the hub's max if there is one) and 2x/2x rear. Try to get NDS spokes all to 50 or more, and as consistent as possible.

  6. #6
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    Hello Dave,

    Thanks so much for your help.
    What do you think of the Miche hubs?
    I currently have a set of Chinese tubular wheels with Novatec hubs so I was looking to improve. What other hubs would you suggest?

    -Thanks!
    Last edited by fabriciom; 06-25-2015 at 02:19 AM.

  7. #7
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    The Miche hubs are okay. The tension balance isn't as good as on the Novatec rear but otherwise they are solid.

    As for other hubs, I don't know what's most readily available in Europe. It will surprise absolutely no one to hear that White Industries makes my favorite hubs.

  8. #8
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    If this is really your first set of wheels, before you start hacking away with expensive components, why not do a practice build (or 2 or 3) on some cheaper stuff? Maybe take apart an existing basic wheel (e.g. 32-spoke 3-cross) and rebuild it just to get the lacing/tensioning basics down. Also, low spoke counts are less forgiving, so starting with an 18-spoke radial might be a stretch. It ain't rocket science, but it does take practice and patience.

  9. #9
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    fabricom,

    Fellow european here (permanent Belgique by way of the New World), just built up my first three wheelsets about 4 months ago now. Need any help and/or tips/suggestions, this is the place to come. Everytime I was unsure of something, post here, and it gets answered. One of the best things to do is read Mike T's website, then re-read again and again and finally, read it one more time (so he doesn't get mad at you when you post a question, haha!). Also, definite YES on whatever spoke tension meter you get (I got the park, made all the difference in the world to building wheels (knock on wood) that I have yet to re-true since they left wheel truing stand (own a TS-2....built like a tank and easily mobile with it if you need to move it). Cough up a hairball on the dishing tool, as you don't need it. If you own a bicycle already, why do you need a dishing tool when your rear triangle of your bike is staring you in the face. A good, well-built spoke key? Another big yes. I have Parks', which I think for the occasional homebuilder are excellent and cheap, but to be fair so are a lot of others. Also, get yourself one of the simple tools that prevents twisting on CX-rays, its worth it instead of trying to hold it with filed down needle nose (or whatever you'd try to use).


    Good luck!!!

  10. #10
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    Hi,

    Im about to start building the front wheel. I ended up going with the Novatec recommend by Dave. I did change the bearings for some hybrid ceramics and also have a set of SKF on they way (store made a shipping mistake). For spokes I went with sapim cx-Ray. Front wheel will be radial 24h at 95kpf. But the rear I'm not too clear. Drive side should be 125kpf but non-drive? Or should I be using another kpf with this hubs and spokes?

    -Thanks,
    Fabricio

  11. #11
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    Non driveside tension is whatever you end up with when the wheel is dished correctly, and the driveside is the right tension.

    60-65 kg would be my guess with the Novatec hubs.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabriciom View Post
    Hi,

    Im about to start building the front wheel. I ended up going with the Novatec recommend by Dave. I did change the bearings for some hybrid ceramics and also have a set of SKF on they way (store made a shipping mistake). For spokes I went with sapim cx-Ray. Front wheel will be radial 24h at 95kpf. But the rear I'm not too clear. Drive side should be 125kpf but non-drive? Or should I be using another kpf with this hubs and spokes?

    -Thanks,
    Fabricio
    A quick approximation of the resulting theoretical tension value on the NDS when the DS sspokes are tensioned to spec is by multiplying the DS tension by the center-to-flange offset ratio.

    The published flange offsets for the Shimano 11 speed Novatec F482SB are 38mm and 17.5mm so the NDS tension when the DS tension is at 125 kgf would be (17.5/38)*125=57.6 kgf.
    Similarly, the 10s Shimano Novatec would be in the 62.5 kgf NDS with 125 kgf at DS.

    A more accurate estimation is derived by including the spoke lengths but the above will put you close enough assuming that the published offsets are accurate.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by dcgriz View Post
    The published flange offsets for the Shimano 11 speed Novatec F482SB are 38mm and 17.5mm so the NDS tension when the DS tension is at 125 kgf would be (17.5/38)*125=57.6 kgf.
    Similarly, the 10s Shimano Novatec would be in the 62.5 kgf NDS with 125 kgf at DS.
    These are very accurate approximations, based on having built a few wheels with those hubs. It's very important to remember that consistency of tension trumps absolute value, once you are at a certain point of absolute tension. By this I mean that having all the NDS spokes be exactly at, say, 35kgf is going to be problematic, but so will having most of them be at 54 but having one or two at 35. If you get the drive sides all even and then get the NDS to all be between about 48 and 52 then you should be fine. This will depend both on rim quality and your skill and patience.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by November Dave View Post
    These are very accurate approximations, based on having built a few wheels with those hubs. It's very important to remember that consistency of tension trumps absolute value, once you are at a certain point of absolute tension. By this I mean that having all the NDS spokes be exactly at, say, 35kgf is going to be problematic, but so will having most of them be at 54 but having one or two at 35. If you get the drive sides all even and then get the NDS to all be between about 48 and 52 then you should be fine. This will depend both on rim quality and your skill and patience.
    Totally agree with the need to equalize tensions on either side. It is paramount and can not be stressed enough. Beyond that, my absolute minimum tension on NDS spokes is 50 kgf. If by calculation I can not assure myself that I will arrive to that value when a maximum DS tension of up to 130kgf is applied then I look for another hub. Often by altering between lacing patterns the NDS tension could be improved by a couple of kgf and sometimes it's what is needed.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  15. #15
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    Just finished my first wheel. Its not perfect but I got to a point where I could not get it any better. If I would touch lateral trueness I would lose radial. Visually its not detectable but with the park tool gauges you could see movement. Thanks to everyone one for helping out.

    -Cheers,
    Fabricio
    Attached Images Attached Images

  16. #16
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    That's as close to perfect as it gets. If the wobbling is not visually detectable on the stand it will not be visually detectable on the bike. The stand tends to visually exaggerate the wobbling. If your tensions are even around the wheel, you are golden.
    With bicycles in particular, you need to separate between what's merely true and what's important.

  17. #17
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    Tension was not the same all around but close.

    What would be a good choice of tubular tyres? I've used Tufo S33 Pro a little bit and think they are ok but dont last that many KMs. Continental Sprinter or Tufo Hi-Composite?

  18. #18
    A wheelist
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    Quote Originally Posted by fabriciom View Post
    Tension was not the same all around but close.
    While it's almost impossible to get the tensions exact and still have an acceptably true wheel, tension equality trumps all else (with "sufficient" tension being a very close second and "optimal" tension coming in third). So if you're getting some unequal tensions, work on that more - while doing optimal stress-relief after every stage. Plucking & listening and tension meters are both acceptable ways of checking relative tensions.

    I find it hard to believe that radial runout is affected by (correct) lateral truing. But choosing a 20 spoke wheel as your first ever wheel-build was a bit like jumping in at the deep end of the pool anyway.
    .

  19. #19
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    I am only a few sets into my wheelbuilding career. The hardest thing for me was to learn to slow down and make small spoke adjustments. Be prepared for the rear wheel to be a bit more difficult.

  20. #20
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    Front wheel took me 3 days...

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