• 12-18-2015
    Ventura Roubaix
    Wheel build? I'm wanting to build a Pacenti SL23
    I'm wanting to build a Pacenti SL23 V2 with a BHS SL 210 rear hub 3x with nipple washers on the drive side, according to the Zed spoke calculator for this build the DS spoke length for this is 285.2, so if I use nipples washers an go up to 286 in length will this be enough, also the NDS spoke length is 288.9 so would I round it down to 288. Thanks for any replies.
  • 12-18-2015
    bikerjulio
    Is that the calculator on the BHS site? If not then try that as well.

    Yes I would normally round down as 1 mm too long is worse than 1 mm too short.
  • 12-18-2015
    cdhbrad
    According to the BHS site, you need to add 1.4mm to the ERD of the Rim when using the Sapim oval washers. Assume you did that to get the numbers listed? If all else is correct, 286 should be OK on the DS. If it were me though, I would use the washers on both sides so I would recalculate the NDS with the extra 1.4mm and see where I needed to go with spoke length. Your wheel, your choice though.
  • 12-18-2015
    Ventura Roubaix
    No I didn't figure in the 1.4mm as the numbers are from the Zed Wheels site calculator
  • 12-18-2015
    Mike T.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Ventura Roubaix View Post
    No I didn't figure in the 1.4mm as the numbers are from the Zed Wheels site calculator

    What you need to know about nipples washers and ERD is all on my site.
  • 12-18-2015
    deviousalex
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bikerjulio View Post
    Yes I would normally round down as 1 mm too long is worse than 1 mm too short.

    Can someone explain to me what the actual spoke measurement is from where to where? Because something that is "too short" doesn't sound like it can even make it to the rim. Or is the spoke just making it to the nipple and then we are good?
  • 12-18-2015
    Mike T.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deviousalex View Post
    Can someone explain to me what the actual spoke measurement is from where to where? Because something that is "too short" doesn't sound like it can even make it to the rim. Or is the spoke just making it to the nipple and then we are good?

    Read my site. I'm sure it will answer all your questions.
  • 12-18-2015
    Ventura Roubaix
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdhbrad View Post
    According to the BHS site, you need to add 1.4mm to the ERD of the Rim when using the Sapim oval washers. Assume you did that to get the numbers listed? If all else is correct, 286 should be OK on the DS. If it were me though, I would use the washers on both sides so I would recalculate the NDS with the extra 1.4mm and see where I needed to go with spoke length. Your wheel, your choice though.

    Where are you seeing this on BHS site?
  • 12-18-2015
    cdhbrad
    On the page for the Sapim Washers: Round PolyAx (HM) Washers (20 pieces). Second line of the text. It isn't exactly clear from the text is that is 1.4mm per washer or 1.4mm for both.....but I have only added 1.4mm when I used them in the past and my spoke lengths worked fine. I tend to round up, not down, if I am in an "in between" spoke size so that may account for it too.

    If you follow Mike T's site, it won't matter what BHS says because you will order the hubs, rims washers, and nipples before you order spokes anyway. That way all measurements are based on the parts you will actually use in the wheels.

    If you have a question, call Brandon at BHS and he will answer any questions you have about the rims or washers.
  • 12-18-2015
    Mike T.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdhbrad View Post
    On the page for the Sapim Washers: Round PolyAx (HM) Washers (20 pieces). Second line of the text. It isn't exactly clear from the text is that is 1.4mm per washer or 1.4mm for both.....but I have only added 1.4mm when I used them in the past and my spoke lengths worked fine. I tend to round up, not down, if I am in an "in between" spoke size so that may account for it too.

    If you follow Mike T's site, it won't matter what BHS says because you will order the hubs, rims washers, and nipples before you order spokes anyway. That way all measurements are based on the parts you will actually use in the wheels.

    If you have a question, call Brandon at BHS and he will answer any questions you have about the rims or washers.

    I will add again - it's all on my site. Washers are 0.7mm each in thickness. 1.4mm for two. Measured 'em myself. This should be added to the ERD or, better still, washers should be placed on the ERD dummy measuring spokes - exhaustively described and pictured on my site.
  • 12-18-2015
    cdhbrad
    I know and I've read your site, very informative. Hopefully, Ventura will spend some time there too. I only mentioned the uncertainty in what BHS says because that same page says the washers are 1.6mm thick.....which, if correct, would add up to 3.2mm for two, not 1.4mm total to the ERD. They are thin.......I just had not measured them recently and am sitting in my office killing the rest of Friday PM as I write this so don't have them at hand to confirm.
  • 12-18-2015
    ericm979
    I calculate the spoke length (after measuring ERD myself), then add .7mm for the washers, then round.

    The Poly-Axe washers are .7mm.

    If the spoke is too short the threaded section will not go far enough into the nipple head. That adds a significant amount of strength to the nipple. If they don't reach, then the nipples are likely to break. Especially aluminium nipples.
  • 12-19-2015
    SBH1973
    Sorry for the uncertainty here. If you use these washers, add 1.4mm to the ERD - basta. I thought: "These washers add 1.4mm to the ERD of the rim" was fairly clear, but I can see how this might cause some confusion. I've made a small update: "So, if your ERD is 588 and you want to use these washers, use 589.4 as your ERD when calculating spoke lengths."

    How did I come up with this number? I measured the ERD of a rim without the washers, and then measured it with the washers. I could be wrong. It might be 1.3 or 1.5mm. :)

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdhbrad View Post
    I know and I've read your site, very informative. Hopefully, Ventura will spend some time there too. I only mentioned the uncertainty in what BHS says because that same page says the washers are 1.6mm thick.....which, if correct, would add up to 3.2mm for two, not 1.4mm total to the ERD. They are thin.......I just had not measured them recently and am sitting in my office killing the rest of Friday PM as I write this so don't have them at hand to confirm.

  • 12-20-2015
    cdhbrad
    Look at the third line below Quantity where it says "Thickness: 1.6mm". One would assume that is for one Washer, but Mike T says they measure 0.7mm thick per washer. That would yield the extra 1.4mm addition to the ERD. I think you need to correct the "Thickness:" too.
  • 12-20-2015
    Mike T.
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by cdhbrad View Post
    Look at the third line below Quantity where it says "Thickness: 1.6mm". One would assume that is for one Washer, but Mike T says they measure 0.7mm thick per washer. That would yield the extra 1.4mm addition to the ERD. I think you need to correct the "Thickness:" too.

    Measured 'em with my own vernier caliper and saw it with my own eyes! 0.7 x2 = 1.4mm. I $#!t you not.
  • 12-21-2015
    bikerjulio
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by deviousalex View Post
    Can someone explain to me what the actual spoke measurement is from where to where? Because something that is "too short" doesn't sound like it can even make it to the rim. Or is the spoke just making it to the nipple and then we are good?

    Perhaps you are confusing cm with mm? A 1 mm difference in spoke length will not have the dramatic impact you are concerned about.

    A lot of people get hung up on fractions of a mm without realizing perhaps just how small a unit it is to start with.

    A spoke that is 1 mm too long stands a good chance of having it's threads bottom out in the nipple. Hence my advice to round down to the nearest available spoke length